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Author Topic: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist  (Read 3989 times)

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Änσnymσus

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conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
« on: May 12, 2017, 12:32:21 PM »
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  • I hear one thing from one person, something else from another. I hear that the pope is still the pope even if he is a heretic. Then I hear that (and tend to think that) since he is a heretic, he automatically is not a Christian and therefore cannot be head of the Church. I tend to believe the latter, but some call sedavacantism a heresy. Well, I think  that is very ironic. I was just at a site where they called it a heresy, and yet that seems to totally ignore the heresy of the pope. Why is it parishioner or "ordinary" person can be a heretic and therefore not a Christian but the pope is exempt from that logic?

    In any case, I find myself a little confused @ times. One thing I am not confused about:  I am not going to listen to a heretic whoever he may be or whatever title he appears to hold.

    If you have been seda for a long time, please help us others to understand better


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #1 on: May 12, 2017, 01:17:56 PM »
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  • Whether the pope is or is not a heretic does not matter.  He should not affect your faith, your prayer life, or your fulfillment of your daily duties.  The pope is a human being who can go to hell just like the rest of us.  He is meant to protect the faith, but if he does not, then life goes on.  In 2,000 years, the pope has never been as accessible as he has been in the last 50 years.  This is an exception, not the norm.

    Doctrine is the important part of our faith.  Doctrine does not change.  Keep doctrine as the foundation of your faith, not the papacy. 


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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 01:22:05 PM »
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  • Whether the pope is or is not a heretic does not matter.  He should not affect your faith, your prayer life, or your fulfillment of your daily duties.  The pope is a human being who can go to hell just like the rest of us.  He is meant to protect the faith, but if he does not, then life goes on.  In 2,000 years, the pope has never been as accessible as he has been in the last 50 years.  This is an exception, not the norm.

    Doctrine is the important part of our faith.  Doctrine does not change.  Keep doctrine as the foundation of your faith, not the papacy.
    I already do that
    but it troubles me that there is so much division in the Church over this. It troubles me that many are led into error and those then lead others into error. In other words, it troubles me that people think they are living a "good" life when they are on the fast track to Hell. Hell is forever. Tell me the pope never thinks about the evil he is doing? 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 04:11:55 PM »
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    I already do that
    but it troubles me that there is so much division in the Church over this. It troubles me that many are led into error and those then lead others into error. In other words, it troubles me that people think they are living a "good" life when they are on the fast track to Hell. Hell is forever. Tell me the pope never thinks about the evil he is doing? 
    As St Paul said to those in Asia, before departing to Jerusalem:
    I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.  And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.  Therefore watch, keeping in memory, that for three years I ceased not, with tears to admonish every one of you night and day.  (Acts 20: 29-31)



    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #4 on: May 13, 2017, 11:07:33 AM »
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  • I already do that
    but it troubles me that there is so much division in the Church over this. It troubles me that many are led into error and those then lead others into error. In other words, it troubles me that people think they are living a "good" life when they are on the fast track to Hell. Hell is forever. Tell me the pope never thinks about the evil he is doing?
    There is a lot of division in the Church over whether Francis is a true pope because there is no person in authority whom everyone trusts to make such a decision about him.  "Strike the shepherd and the sheep shall scatter."  Until we have a true Catholic pope to lead us all, there will always be division.
    One thing that sort of makes sense to me is the idea which some people say that Francis fills the office in name so far as he as been elected, but that he would have to become a Catholic before he would be fully the pope with any authority.  It is sort of like how a Bishop-elect fills the office of a certain diocese in name once he has been elected, but until he is Consecrated and officially made a bishop, he has not the authority or power of a bishop...
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #5 on: May 13, 2017, 04:04:52 PM »
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  • I hear one thing from one person, something else from another. I hear that the pope is still the pope even if he is a heretic. Then I hear that (and tend to think that) since he is a heretic, he automatically is not a Christian and therefore cannot be head of the Church. I tend to believe the latter, but some call sedavacantism a heresy. Well, I think  that is very ironic. I was just at a site where they called it a heresy, and yet that seems to totally ignore the heresy of the pope. Why is it parishioner or "ordinary" person can be a heretic and therefore not a Christian but the pope is exempt from that logic?

    In any case, I find myself a little confused @ times. One thing I am not confused about:  I am not going to listen to a heretic whoever he may be or whatever title he appears to hold.

    If you have been seda for a long time, please help us others to understand better
     
    This is really not complicated, so people shouldn't be making it complicated. The heresies from Francis are manifest; approving of atheism, ѕυιcιdє, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, cohabitation etc - anyone who says there are no heresies is just lying to themselves. So now that we are aware there are heresies coming from a man who is calling himself the Pope, we simply need to look back at what the Catholic Church has taught should such a thing happen. There are plenty of quotes from the Catholic Church on the subject - don't listen to the opinions of laypeople - the Church is our authority. You can see the quotes from the Church in black and white at this link: http://francisquotes.com/church-teaching.html
     
    People are fighting against the obvious answer primarily because it will inconvenience them; forcing them to move closer to a sede Mass, quit their job, risk tensions with family etc. It's a test of faith - do you want to please God or the people around you?
     

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #6 on: May 13, 2017, 04:12:29 PM »
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  • Whether the pope is or is not a heretic does not matter.  He should not affect your faith, your prayer life, or your fulfillment of your daily duties.  The pope is a human being who can go to hell just like the rest of us.  He is meant to protect the faith, but if he does not, then life goes on.  In 2,000 years, the pope has never been as accessible as he has been in the last 50 years.  This is an exception, not the norm.

    Doctrine is the important part of our faith.  Doctrine does not change.  Keep doctrine as the foundation of your faith, not the papacy.

    This is horrendous advice. If Francis is the Pope then Catholics must obey him in matters of faith and morals. So we better know if he is Pope or not! If he truly is Pope, then you need to accept what he has taught such as approving of ecuмenism, atheism, ѕυιcιdє, same-sex marriage, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, contraception etc.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #7 on: May 13, 2017, 06:46:57 PM »
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    If he truly is Pope, then you need to accept what he has taught such as approving of ecuмenism, atheism, ѕυιcιdє, same-sex marriage, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, contraception etc.
    The pope can preach and 'approve' of whatever he wants.  Doesn't mean we have to follow it.  Whether he is or isn't pope is immaterial.  We have to follow the 10 commandments and the natural law to get to heaven.  This doesn't change and never will.  We're not supposed to turn our brains off and just follow the pope blindly.


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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 07:04:08 PM »
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  • Before Christ was born, we have many prophecies.  Literally every Who, What, When, Where, Why, How was answered, how to prepare, following the 10 commandments.  When Our Lady came, we know her as a Jєω, from the family of David.  There were Jєωs who followed the prophecies.  Then there were Jєωs who saw Jesus dead.

    We are not much different today.  Prophecies are in the bible.  We need to listen and act.  The apostles asked Christ these questions Matt. 24 and Christ speaks of the abomination desolation.  Then he refers them to Daniel the Prophet.  Tribulations are in order, and the continual Sacrifice of the mass will end.  

    I ponder these prophecies.  If no Precious Blood, no powers, wow!!  A saint once said, it would be better to have no sun, then no Mass.  I ponder, if no Precious Blood, Fr. Faber said the Precious Blood is in all the sacraments.  We will lose the sacraments?  If we have no ordained priest(another sacrament), ponder.

    Is this pope Catholic?  Are the New Order masses, really truly Masses with Precious Blood?  Confession?  If any clergy says a New Order mass, that we understand is not of Christ, if the clergy are not ordained, IF THESE MEN Know, are they not Against Christ?  Are they the enemy that will take the Church of Christ to the Cross.  Then His Church resurrects?  (Anti-Christ is to come and Christ will Make His Kingdom on Earth)

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 10:24:05 PM »
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  • The pope can preach and 'approve' of whatever he wants.  Doesn't mean we have to follow it.  Whether he is or isn't pope is immaterial.  We have to follow the 10 commandments and the natural law to get to heaven.  This doesn't change and never will.  We're not supposed to turn our brains off and just follow the pope blindly.

    You are very mistaken on this. When you say, "Doesn't mean we have to follow it" is the exact definition of schism, which incurs automatic excommunication. You need to read up thoroughly on the subject of schism in pre-Vatican II books. You will see the Church has always taught that all Catholics must submit to the authority of the Pope on matters of faith and morals, no exceptions. It is a very serious error to "recognize and resist" - this has never been taught by the Church.


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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #10 on: May 15, 2017, 09:30:30 AM »
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    You are very mistaken on this. When you say, "Doesn't mean we have to follow it" is the exact definition of schism, which incurs automatic excommunication. You need to read up thoroughly on the subject of schism in pre-Vatican II books. You will see the Church has always taught that all Catholics must submit to the authority of the Pope on matters of faith and morals, no exceptions. It is a very serious error to "recognize and resist" - this has never been taught by the Church.
    If the pope jumps off a bridge, do we have to jump?  If the pope says 'people can be saved in any religion', do we have to follow this error?  Certainly not.  It's that simple. 
    You would argue, well, we don't follow it because he's not the pope, since he said heresy.  I would say, 'no, we don't follow it because it's WRONG.'  His holding the office of the papacy and whether or not he spoke heresy is a DISTRACTION and is a secondary issue.  The main issue is 'What does the Church teach?'  Who is or isn't pope doesn't matter.  What matters is the truth and doctrine.


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #11 on: May 15, 2017, 01:27:02 PM »
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  • If the pope jumps off a bridge, do we have to jump?  If the pope says 'people can be saved in any religion', do we have to follow this error?  Certainly not.  It's that simple.
    You would argue, well, we don't follow it because he's not the pope, since he said heresy.  I would say, 'no, we don't follow it because it's WRONG.'  His holding the office of the papacy and whether or not he spoke heresy is a DISTRACTION and is a secondary issue.  The main issue is 'What does the Church teach?'  Who is or isn't pope doesn't matter.  What matters is the truth and doctrine.

    What you are saying is not taught anywhere by the Church. If a man claiming to be a pope tells people to jump off a bridge or that they can be saved in any religion, he cannot possibly be a pope. The Church has taught this over and over and over again (see the quotes here). If you don't follow what a Pope says simply because you think he's wrong, then you are using your own personal judgment to determine what's right and wrong instead of having the Pope do it for you, which has been what the Church has always taught because the Church is our authority. Sifting through what a Pope says and deciding for yourself what is right and what is wrong is nothing but Protestant thinking. If you are wrong in your judgment even once, it's called SCHISM.

    See the Catholic Encyclopedia article on schism and scroll down to the section, "Attempts to Legitimize Schism" and you will see the Church does not provide a single exception for allowing schism. The man is either Pope and we obey him entirely in matters of faith and morals (because a true Pope is prevented by the Holy Ghost from misleading the faithful), or he is not the pope and is owed no obedience. There is no middle ground.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #12 on: May 15, 2017, 01:48:31 PM »
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  • SO... The Question Becomes,  "Does the Holy Roman Catholic Church have a "Pope" at this Time "?

    A "Heretic", Cannot be "Pope", or anything else in the Church.  He cannot command in something he is not a member of.

    Agree , or not Agree ?


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: conflicting feelings abo"ut being sedavacantist
    « Reply #13 on: May 15, 2017, 02:30:39 PM »
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  • A clear case for the, "Sedevacante" Position and the "Sedevacante s "

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    Re: conflicting feelings about being sedavacantist
    « Reply #14 on: May 15, 2017, 02:33:09 PM »
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    What you are saying is not taught anywhere by the Church. If a man claiming to be a pope tells people to jump off a bridge or that they can be saved in any religion, he cannot possibly be a pope.
    Ok.  Great.  But I don't care.  It's not my determination to make.

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    If you don't follow what a Pope says simply because you think he's wrong, then you are using your own personal judgment to determine what's right and wrong
    I use my BRAIN to compare infallibly defined statements against heretical nonesense.  That's what catholics are supposed to do.  It's why God gave us an intellect.

     
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    instead of having the Pope do it for you, which has been what the Church has always taught because the Church is our authority.
    Truth is authority.  Doctrine is authority.  Infallible statements are authority.  (Just like when you quoted popes/theologians to tell me that the "pope can't be the pope if he is a heretic".)  The pope does not "make or break" our Faith or our Church. 

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    Sifting through what a Pope says and deciding for yourself what is right and what is wrong is nothing but Protestant thinking. If you are wrong in your judgment even once, it's called SCHISM.  See the Catholic Encyclopedia article on schism and scroll down to the section, "Attempts to Legitimize Schism" and you will see the Church does not provide a single exception for allowing schism. The man is either Pope and we obey him entirely in matters of faith and morals (because a true Pope is prevented by the Holy Ghost from misleading the faithful), or he is not the pope and is owed no obedience. There is no middle ground.
    The middle ground is that infallibility is a focused tool of the papacy, used very sparingly.  Pope Benedict said he never invoked the power during his reign.  So provide me with one, single instance during Pope Benedict's reign where he directly and OFFICIALLY, by using his apostolic authority, commanded that the entire church believe a heresy.  He did not.  Does that mean he's a saint?  Far from it.  Does that mean he's a good pope?  No, there's many, many things he did and allowed that are grevious and heinous.  Yet, the point is, never did he use the papal office to command a sin, or formally legalize a heresy.