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Author Topic: Can dreams be sinful?  (Read 2267 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Can dreams be sinful?
« on: September 12, 2023, 08:48:53 PM »
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    • Sometimes it appears that I have some degree of control over my actions and desires in dreams. Can such cases be sinful?
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #1 on: September 12, 2023, 08:57:07 PM »
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    Sometimes it appears that I have some degree of control over my actions and desires in dreams.


    That's merely an illusion.




    Article 5. Whether nocturnal pollution is a mortal sin?

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article5



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    I answer that, Nocturnal pollution may be considered in two ways. First, in itself; and thus it has not the character of a sin. For every sin depends on the judgment of reason, since even the first movement of the sensuality has nothing sinful in it, except in so far as it can be suppressed by reason; wherefore in the absence of reason's judgment, there is no sin in it. Now during sleep reason has not a free judgment. For there is no one who while sleeping does not regard some of the images formed by his imagination as though they were real, as stated above in I:84:8 ad 2. Wherefore what a man does while he sleeps and is deprived of reason's judgment, is not imputed to him as a sin, as neither are the actions of a maniac or an imbecile.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #2 on: September 12, 2023, 09:28:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on September 12, 2023, 08:57:07 PM

    That's merely an illusion.




    Article 5. Whether nocturnal pollution is a mortal sin?

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article5
    So my 'choice' in dreams are not real? Even though these things occur when I am close to waking up.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #3 on: September 12, 2023, 09:37:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 12, 2023, 09:28:55 PM
    So my 'choice' in dreams are not real? Even though these things occur when I am close to waking up.


    I've never been able to choose what dreams I've dreamt, and it is also best to just ignore them.

    If your conscience is getting to you then ask your confessor.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #4 on: September 12, 2023, 09:51:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on September 12, 2023, 09:37:26 PM

    I've never been able to choose what dreams I've dreamt, and it is also best to just ignore them.

    If your conscience is getting to you then ask your confessor.
    I don't get to choose the dream either (unless I try to think of certain things before falling sleep but no guarantees), however sometimes in a dream it appears that I do get to make choices, but this could potentially be a trick?
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #5 on: September 12, 2023, 10:41:04 PM »
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    • Not sure if it even has anything to do with this but if you're talking about a "wet dream". It happens to me about once a year and I do feel guilty about it afterwards but it wasn't an act of the will, nor did I have control over it. 

    There has been some occasions where I'm half-conscious/half-asleep and I'll have semi-deliberate carnal thoughts, when I'm fully coherent I don't have them or want them but when I'm half-asleep then sometimes they come up and then when I realize what's happening I pray and fight it off.  I'm not 100% sure on cases like that, might be venial sin for cases like that, I guess it could be mortal sin if after you were conscious and aware of what was happening and you took delight and thought about it more without fighting it off. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #6 on: September 12, 2023, 11:18:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 12, 2023, 10:41:04 PM
    Not sure if it even has anything to do with this but if you're talking about a "wet dream".  It happens to me about once a year and I do feel guilty about it afterwards but it wasn't an act of the will, nor did I have control over it. 

    There has been some occasions where I'm half-conscious/half-asleep and I'll have semi-deliberate carnal thoughts, when I'm fully coherent I don't have them or want them but when I'm half-asleep then sometimes they come up and then when I realize what's happening I pray and fight it off.  I'm not 100% sure on cases like that, might be venial sin for cases like that, I guess it could be mortal sin if after you were conscious and aware of what was happening and you took delight and thought about it more without fighting it off. 

    You are fortunate. To me it happens much more often than once a year.

    A rather disgusting experience.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #7 on: September 12, 2023, 11:55:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 12, 2023, 09:28:55 PM
    So my 'choice' in dreams are not real? Even though these things occur when I am close to waking up.

    No.  I agree with trad123 that there can be an illusion or perception of making a rational and willful choice in a dream, but it's really not.  It's more a perception than a reality.  Essentially, when the mind's fog lifts and you become fully alert, you would not make some of the same "choices" you would have in a dream.  I know of no theologian who's held that anything that happens in a dream could entail moral culpability.  Now, there could be some indirect culpability if one engages in activities that might "fuel" said dreams, but it would be rather remote and indirect.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #8 on: September 13, 2023, 03:19:01 AM »
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    • Could you possibly have some type of sleep disorder?  Unwanted actions done repeatedly in one’s sleep may indicate a neurological problem, not a sin problem.  
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #9 on: September 13, 2023, 06:37:02 AM »
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    • Lucid dreams are when you know that you’re dreaming while you’re asleep.

    You’re aware that the events flashing through your brain aren’t really happening. But the dream feels vivid and real. You may even be able to control how the action unfolds, as if you’re directing a movie in your sleep.

    https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/lucid-dreams-overview#:~:text=Lucid%20dreams%20are%20when%20you,a%20movie%20in%20your%20sleep.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #10 on: September 13, 2023, 07:46:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 12, 2023, 11:18:30 PM
    You are fortunate. To me it happens much more often than once a year.

    A rather disgusting experience.
    Try fasting. If you eat meat, then eat it earlier in the day and not at night. Also try to limit your liquid intake before going to bed. Also do not watch TV/Internet, screens before going to bed. I assume you are not feeding your imagination with impure/immodest images. If not, then you must not continue to feed your imagination. Do extra prayers before sleeping. In the day, keep busy with productive activity, do not be lazy or idle, keep control of all your thoughts while awake. Do not let yourself day dream.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #11 on: September 13, 2023, 11:10:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 13, 2023, 06:37:02 AM
    Lucid dreams are when you know that you’re dreaming while you’re asleep.

    You’re aware that the events flashing through your brain aren’t really happening. But the dream feels vivid and real. You may even be able to control how the action unfolds, as if you’re directing a movie in your sleep.

    https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/lucid-dreams-overview#:~:text=Lucid%20dreams%20are%20when%20you,a%20movie%20in%20your%20sleep.
    .

    I am very skeptical of the concept of lucid dreams. Yes, it is a known phenomenon that people can be "aware" that they are dreaming sometimes, so I guess in that sense there is such a thing as a lucid dream, but according to Catholic theology there is no conscious thought or free will in dreams.

    The only possibility I can see, then, is that the knowledge that one is dreaming is itself an illusion as part of the dream, since one can't consciously be aware of anything in a dream. In other words, the fact that you "know" you're dreaming is simply part of your dream, and therefore the idea of conscious awareness or free will in a dream is still impossible.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2023, 06:56:19 AM »
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    • Speaking of dreams, when Sacred Scripture describes St. Joseph being warned in dreams about certain things, I'm convinced that these were not actually dreams in our sense of the term, but rather various ecstatic visions that St. Joseph had, and the word "dream" was used to describe them to lack of an explicit term for vision.  I am certain that St. Joseph received such private revelations and that these were not dreams in the ordinary understanding of the term.  I know that I would not make a drastic decision like picking up and moving my family to Egypt based on some regular dream.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2023, 10:30:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 14, 2023, 06:56:19 AM
    Speaking of dreams, when Sacred Scripture describes St. Joseph being warned in dreams about certain things, I'm convinced that these were not actually dreams in our sense of the term, but rather various ecstatic visions that St. Joseph had, and the word "dream" was used to describe them to lack of an explicit term for vision.  I am certain that St. Joseph received such private revelations and that these were not dreams in the ordinary understanding of the term.  I know that I would not make a drastic decision like picking up and moving my family to Egypt based on some regular dream.
    https://denvercatholic.org/saint-joseph-a-vision-in-a-dream/
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Can dreams be sinful?
    « Reply #14 on: September 17, 2023, 07:45:55 AM »
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    • If I have had desires to have impure dreams is this a mortal sin?
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