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Author Topic: Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?  (Read 1744 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
« on: January 21, 2014, 11:55:27 PM »
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  • If a faithful catholic did a general confession, set his/her life straight and STAYED committed during deployment, can they be in a state of grace?

    The context I'm asking is a USA soldier who may get called to action in conflict.

    A couple variables too:

    Can they ask to mercifully defeat their enemies?
    Can any war or action be fought if they're directed to do so, or is it ONLY just wars?



    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 12:32:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    If a faithful catholic did a general confession, set his/her life straight and STAYED committed during deployment, can they be in a state of grace?

    The context I'm asking is a USA soldier who may get called to action in conflict.

    A couple variables too:

    Can they ask to mercifully defeat their enemies?
    Can any war or action be fought if they're directed to do so, or is it ONLY just wars?


    Much of this is dependent. The Catholic Church teaches that volunteers to the army have the moral duty to study the issues and if they determine that a war is unjust they have the obligation to resign their commision.
    In the case of conscripts they can give the benefit of a doubt that those who are above them know more than they do and if they are drafted then they can participate in good conscience.    


    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 08:12:18 AM »
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  • Wonder if there is a place for "invincible ignorance" in this case ?    :detective:

    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 10:29:30 AM »
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  • I don't kow about a solider but I'm pretty sure a soldier can't remain in a State of Grace.  This is coming from my very good Catechism teacher in middle school...

    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 10:34:58 AM »
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  • I wonder, isn't a Just War only Just on one side? I mean, both sides can't be right, so the one that is right is fighting in a just cause, and the other isn't. But who's right and who's wrong is debatable.


    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 11:03:07 AM »
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  • Requirements for mortal sin include: 1) Grave matter 2) Knowledge that the act is mortally sinful 3) Willful decision to commit the sin.

    That's what would put you outside of the state of Grace, so the question is, can a checkmark always be put next to these three stipulations for a soldier on the battlefield?

    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 11:29:15 AM »
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  • Define soldier.

    Hey, I know people from high school who joined the military because they wanted to kill people.

    In a general sense, you should look at literature on the Church teaching on "Just War".

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 11:34:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest

    Define soldier.

    Hey, I know people from high school who joined the military because they wanted to kill people.

    In a general sense, you should look at literature on the Church teaching on "Just War".


    They would be guilty of mortal sin. To kill someone for the sake of
    killing, and that they believe that the military will give them a license
    to kill. In better times, these recruits would be screened out.


    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #8 on: January 22, 2014, 11:44:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Quote from: Guest

    Define soldier.

    Hey, I know people from high school who joined the military because they wanted to kill people.

    In a general sense, you should look at literature on the Church teaching on "Just War".


    They would be guilty of mortal sin. To kill someone for the sake of
    killing, and that they believe that the military will give them a license
    to kill. In better times, these recruits would be screened out.


    You think they would be screened out in better times ?

    Because I graduated in the late 1980s when our military had its highest standards leading into the Gulf War.

    Offline soulguard

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #9 on: January 22, 2014, 12:05:24 PM »
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  • Well you're not exactly fighting for Christianity are you?

    You shed blood, even your own blood, for the government of the USA, dying for atheist's power basically.

    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 03:24:31 PM »
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  • Was Joan of Arc in a state of grace during her battles?


    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 04:50:31 PM »
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  • All young soldiers are victims of false propaganda that comes from
    their higher ups that makes them to believe that they are in a righteous
    cause.  

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 05:38:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    All young soldiers are victims of false propaganda that comes from
    their higher ups that makes them to believe that they are in a righteous
    cause.  


    Absolutely!

    As someone remarked earlier, there's a big difference between volunteering and being conscripted.  

    This thread reminds me of a scene from Henry V, the night before Agincourt where the soldier ruminate on the morality of their involvement in the battle, what they are responsible for and what they are not, with a stranger (unbeknownst to them that he is their king).  Emphasis mine:

    Quote from: Henry V, Act IV, Scene I


    King Henry (incognito): I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
    alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
    minds: methinks I could not die any where so
    contented as in the king's company; his cause being
    just and his quarrel honourable.


    Williams: That's more than we know.

    Bates: Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
    enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
    his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
    the crime of it out of us.


    Williams: But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
    a heavy reckoning to make
    , when all those legs and
    arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
    together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
    such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
    surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
    them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
    children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
    well that die in a battle; for how can they
    charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
    argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
    will be a black matter for the king that led them to
    it;
    whom to disobey were against all proportion of
    subjection.

    King Henry (incognito) :

        So, if a son that is by his father sent about
        merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the
        imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be
        imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a
        servant, under his master's command transporting a
        sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in
        many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the
        business of the master the author of the servant's
        damnation: but this is not so: the king is not
        bound to answer the particular endings of his
        soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of
        his servant; for they purpose not their death, when
        they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
        king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to
        the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all
        unspotted soldiers
    : some peradventure have on them
        the guilt of premeditated and contrived murder;
        some, of beguiling virgins with the broken seals of
        perjury; some, making the wars their bulwark, that
        have before gored the gentle bosom of peace with
        pillage and robbery. Now, if these men have
        defeated the law and outrun native punishment,
        though they can outstrip men, they have no wings to
        fly from God: war is his beadle, war is vengeance;
        so that here men are punished for before-breach of
        the king's laws in now the king's quarrel: where
        they feared the death, they have borne life away;
        and where they would be safe, they perish: then if
        they die unprovided, no more is the king guilty of
        their damnation than he was before guilty of those
        impieties for the which they are now visited. Every
        subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's
        soul is his own. Therefore should every soldier in
        the wars do as every sick man in his bed, wash every
        mote out of his conscience
    : and dying so, death
        is to him advantage; or not dying, the time was
        blessedly lost wherein such preparation was gained:
        and in him that escapes, it were not sin to think
        that, making God so free an offer, He let him
        outlive that day to see His greatness and to teach
        others how they should prepare.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Änσnymσus

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 06:19:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    All young soldiers are victims of false propaganda that comes from
    their higher ups that makes them to believe that they are in a righteous
    cause.  


    Serving as a soldier for your country, on the contary, is very manly. Let us stop with this pacifist nonsense.

    Offline Frances

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    Can a solider be in a state of grace during battle?
    « Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 06:53:56 PM »
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  •  :drillsergeant:
    Pacifism is not Catholic, period!  Pacifism is for cowards, fαɢɢօts, and sincere but mistaken heretics.  A good point was made about an enlisted man participating in an unjust war, however, who determines if a war or combat situation is just?  Is that the job of an enlisted man?  If so, there will be as many judgments as soldiers.  An individual soldier must determine whether his specific actions in battle are just.  Example, he may not obey an unjust command, ie. execute children in a daycare center belonging to the enemy to make him afraid. (That is murder.)  However, if the children are killed as the unintended result of a legitimate battle in the street outside, or the bombing of a known military target, no sin is committed.  Is it a terrible tragedy for which the enemy may legitimately seek recompense?  Yes, it is.  One must keep in mind that war is a punishment for sin, but God Himself is a Warrior.  
    If the combat soldier goes into battle in a state of grace, obeys a just command, and commits no mortal sin (three conditions met) during the fighting, then he can be at peace that even if he is killed, he is in a state of grace.  There are no doubt countless Catholics who have saved their souls in combat, who, had they lived to return, may have fallen away and gone to Hell.
     :dancing-banana:
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.