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Poll

Is Bergoglio / Francis a real Catholic and legitimate pope?

No. He's not a real Catholic nor is he a legitimate pope.
23 (63.9%)
Yes. He's a real Catholic and legitimate pope.
3 (8.3%)
He's not a real Catholic but he's a legitimate pope.
2 (5.6%)
He's a real Catholic but he's not a legitimate pope.
1 (2.8%)
I don't know.
7 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: August 08, 2021, 12:39:33 AM

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Author Topic: Bergoglio / Francis  (Read 1400 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Bergoglio / Francis
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2021, 05:03:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on July 29, 2021, 03:59:51 PM
    .
    Yeah, I thought I was getting some deja vu. I guess it wasn't just me. Do you have a link to the other one? I'm too lazy to track it down ...
    I am lazy as well but I'll try my best  :cowboy:
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #16 on: July 29, 2021, 05:15:18 PM »
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    • 18-4 sede to non-sede, with 4 who don't know.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #17 on: July 29, 2021, 05:15:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on July 29, 2021, 05:15:18 PM
    18-4 sede to non-sede, with 4 who don't know.
    I mean 5 who don't know
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #18 on: July 29, 2021, 05:17:42 PM »
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    • Even if all five who don't know are counted as non-sedes it would be two to one in favor of the sedes.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #19 on: July 29, 2021, 05:28:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Limoges on July 29, 2021, 04:37:19 PM
    In response to RomanTheo, ditto what TKGS said. Basically, a real Catholic is somebody who is baptized and adheres to the Athanasian Creed.
    Your definition of a real Catholic includes Lutherans, Baptists and Calvinists, since they all accept the Athanasian Creed. 

    Luther called the Athanasian Creed "the most important docuмent since the Apostolic Age."  The Baptist Confession (1678) says: "The three creeds, viz. Nicene Creed, Athanasius’s Creed, and the Apostles Creed, as they are commonly called, ought thoroughly to be received, and believed.”



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    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #20 on: July 29, 2021, 09:56:14 PM »
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    • Bergoglio is objectively a heretic regardless of where you stand on the ecclesiological ramifications that follow from the above observation (as is the case with all of the conciliar hierarchy). He’s an evil man, a corrupter, an  pertinacious disseminator of moral degeneracy and doctrinal heresy, a destroyer, a deceiver, a manipulative modernist, and a spiritual predecessor of the anti-Christ.

    I pray that he sees the errors of his ways before he passes on otherwise he will go to where he will be judged to the fullest extent of our Lord’s justice for the damage he has done. I pray the same conversion take place for Ratzinger before he passes away.
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    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #21 on: July 29, 2021, 11:34:16 PM »
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    • I am in the “I don't know" camp, because I personally feel unqualified to make a distinction either way. 
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    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline Limoges

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #22 on: July 30, 2021, 07:19:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on July 29, 2021, 05:28:56 PM
    Your definition of a real Catholic includes Lutherans, Baptists and Calvinists, since they all accept the Athanasian Creed.
    No, it doesn't because they don't have the true Catholic Faith. They can claim they accept it and say it's the most important creed but that doesn't mean believe in what it really proclaims. It was the Catholic Church who wrote the Creed. The idiots you mention broke away from the Church or broke away from a previous break-away. None of them have valid sacraments which Our Lord says "you must eat to have life", and most of them don't even believe in transubstantiation.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #23 on: July 30, 2021, 10:02:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Limoges on July 30, 2021, 07:19:32 AM
    No, it doesn't because they don't have the true Catholic Faith. They can claim they accept it and say it's the most important creed but that doesn't mean believe in what it really proclaims.

    Have you ever read the Athanasian Creed?  It pertains to the Trinity and the Person of Christ, which are doctrines most of the Protestants accept.


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    Athanasian Creed: Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.


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    Limoges: It was the Catholic Church who wrote the Creed. The idiots you mention broke away from the Church or broke away from a previous break-away. 

    Using the same reasoning, you and the other sedevacantists don't accept the Athanasian Creed, since you all broke away from the Catholic Church or broke away from a previous break-away.  


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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #24 on: July 30, 2021, 11:09:17 AM »
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    • If Bergoglio was validly baptized (I assume so due to his age), doesn't that make him at least nominally Catholic even if an invalid Papal claimant?
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #25 on: July 30, 2021, 11:59:48 AM »
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    • I don know why this causes so much fighting within the trad circles. It doesn't matter whether or not he is the pope. We cant follow him either way.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #26 on: July 30, 2021, 12:14:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on July 30, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
    Have you ever read the Athanasian Creed?  It pertains to the Trinity and the Person of Christ, which are doctrines most of the Protestants accept.



    Using the same reasoning, you and the other sedevacantists don't accept the Athanasian Creed, since you all broke away from the Catholic Church or broke away from a previous break-away.  
    Try again Siscoe/Salza.
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    Offline Limoges

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #27 on: July 30, 2021, 02:56:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on July 30, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
    Have you ever read the Athanasian Creed?  It pertains to the Trinity and the Person of Christ, which are doctrines most of the Protestants accept.
    Logic isn't your forte. Read the very first line of the Creed. They all fail to qualify what the first line says. To say you're "Catholic" and actually being Catholic is not the same.

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    Using the same reasoning, you and the other sedevacantists don't accept the Athanasian Creed, since you all broke away from the Catholic Church or broke away from a previous break-away.
    No, that's you novus ordo modernists, indult-goers and Frankenchurch-goers who reject roughly 1,960 years of Catholic dogma, doctrine and holy tradition, but you still claim to be "Catholic".
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    Offline Limoges

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #28 on: July 30, 2021, 03:28:11 PM »
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    • The Creed doesn't itemize every part of the Catholic Faith. Obviously, that was never the intention. Its focus was to combat Arianism, hence, the emphasis on the Trinity-One God, the Incarnation, Jesus Christ's (two) natures, and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and Son.  But because something isn't specifically mentioned in the Creed doesn't mean you don't have to believe it; and the Creed does define that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Faith (to include valid Sacraments and belief in transubstantiation). The Newchurch teaches religious indifferentism and polytheism, which is a violation of the First Commandment. There is strong argument for their "sacraments" being invalid, too. Newchurch is not Catholic and doesn't adhere to the Athanasian Creed. The protestants also fail the Creed for the aforementioned reasons and not believing in the true presence of Jesus Christ - Body, Soul & Divinity - in the Eucharist.
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    Offline Limoges

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    Re: Bergoglio / Francis
    « Reply #29 on: August 02, 2021, 05:00:16 PM »
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    • bump
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