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Author Topic: bedroom advice needed  (Read 3455 times)

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Änσnymσus

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bedroom advice needed
« on: June 17, 2018, 10:48:40 AM »
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  • My wife is currently pregnant and we don't want to have intercourse, despite doing research and it being "safe" we are both very worried it might hurt the baby and aren't comfortable doing it.

    Am I allowed to please my wife (not me) in other ways, seeing that I'm not using any sperm and although we know we should be open to life, the life is already there and we can't create another baby/


    Will it be a sin // shall we just abstain?


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #1 on: June 17, 2018, 11:14:08 AM »
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  • Please ask a priest for a Catholic perspective on this. A forum won't get you the answers you want.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 12:09:34 PM »
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  • It would be a sin to stimulate your wife unless you progress to intercourse. 

    My husband and I always abstain during pregnancy. 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #3 on: June 17, 2018, 03:07:07 PM »
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  • It is my understanding that such activity should come to its natural conclusion; otherwise it's sinful.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #4 on: June 17, 2018, 03:10:09 PM »
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  • I hope that you will ask a priest about the moral question, but I am a mother of  seven so I know about being pregnant.  My husband and I had sex during all my pregnancies.  As you say, it is normally safe and I would have felt bad about abstaining for such a long time.  I would worry about it causing temptation.

    Abstaining when you're married is different from abstaining when you are celibate and used to it. 


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 08:31:12 AM »
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  • 3. This is what an old priest told my sister on the subject: "Do what you want in the bedroom, swing from a trapeze if you please, but it must end in intercourse."  Otherwise it is a mortal sin.

    This corresponds to everything I have heard as well.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 08:35:15 AM »
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  • This corresponds to everything I have heard as well.

    With that said, there can obviously be degrees of venial sin in various forms of excessive indulgence in pleasure.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 09:06:04 AM »
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  • Foreplay is ordered toward intercourse, so it is unnatural to employ it without that end attempted.  As you noticed, there are not any general health risks with intercourse during pregnancy. So just proceed as usual.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 07:25:37 PM »
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  • My wife is currently pregnant and we don't want to have intercourse, despite doing research and it being "safe" we are both very worried it might hurt the baby and aren't comfortable doing it.

    In addition to being safe unless your doctor says otherwise, late-pregnancy relations are somewhat beneficial in preparing the body for labor.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 07:42:35 PM »
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  • .
    I disagree.
    What and who defines excessive?
    ..

    Well, you'd be wrong.  It's the same principle that applies to eating.  If you're excessively indulging in the pleasure of eating, then you commit the sin of gluttony.  There's similarly the possibility of engaging in a kind of sɛҳuąƖ gluttony, where the pleasure is out or proportion with the spiritual/intellectual ends of the marital act.  This is commonly taught by the Church Fathers and all subsequent theologians.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 11:19:07 PM »
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  • .
    I disagree.
    What and who defines excessive?
    ..

    And I agree with your disagreeing.

    It's very vague to talk about the possibility of venial sin when "excessive pleasure" is sought after/experienced in sex.

    Let's apply the same thinking to food. There's no way I'm not going to experience pleasure eating a simple, common food like a hamburger when I'm starving hungry. But all we must do as Catholics is 1) first bless our food, thanking Him for His great bounty, and 2) stay within the bounds of temperance (don't eat too fast, or too much, or be too picky, etc.) So as long as you avoid those excesses, as to the rest, the inevitable pleasure of eating was put there by God and it's not evil! Consider it a small consolation from God, to remind us something of His goodness.

    We're not Puritans or Manicheans.  Dualism is a heresy: the body wasn't created by the "evil god". No, our body AND our soul were both created good by God, Who is all-perfect.

    So if you are staying within God's bounds (for married relations, that would just involve being married and being open to life -- ending all activities in the proper way), then there is no need to get SCRUPLES about it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 09:37:41 AM »
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  • It's very vague to talk about the possibility of venial sin when "excessive pleasure" is sought after/experienced in sex.

    Only thing that's vague is the discernment of when someone has crossed the line into sin.  As for the possibility of committing venial sin against either purity or in terms of gluttony, there's no question that this can happen.  If I sit down and stuff my face with two pounds of cake ... even to the detriment of my health, that is clearly the sin of gluttony, since the pleasure has clearly gotten blown out of proportion with the primary end of eating.  And St. Thomas, among others, teach gluttony can only be a venial sin.  Yes, we experience a certain amount of pleasure in eating food (and with sex), but the pleasure must have its ORDER.  And if it becomes disordered, where it dominates over the other ends, the Church Fathers and the majority of theologians agree that there can in fact be venial sin.  So in some cases, the question of venial sin might be vague, but in others it's very obvious (e.g. when I eat a couple pounds of cake to the point of making myself feel sick to my stomach).  Same principle applies to sex.  Sex can become a mortal sin because the end of procreation is much higher than that of feeding the body.  When you completely rule out the primary end, then it's mortal sin, but when the secondary ends to some degree become sought after more than the primary end, there's a degree of either imperfection or else venial sin, depending on how far it goes.  This is called DISORDER, and to the degree that it's deliberate, it can be venial sin.  To the degree that it's not deliberate, it's imperfection.  To say otherwise would be an outright denial of sin by disorder, and order/ends/means/disorder are THE KEY considerations in all Catholic moral theology.  Period.

    If you're saying that "excessive pleasure" cannot be a mortal sin, then there's no such thing as the sin of gluttony.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 09:41:20 AM »
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  • Let's apply the same thinking to food. There's no way I'm not going to experience pleasure eating a simple, common food like a hamburger when I'm starving hungry. But all we must do as Catholics is 1) first bless our food, thanking Him for His great bounty, and 2) stay within the bounds of temperance (don't eat too fast, or too much, or be too picky, etc.) So as long as you avoid those excesses, as to the rest, the inevitable pleasure of eating was put there by God and it's not evil! Consider it a small consolation from God, to remind us something of His goodness.

    We're not Puritans or Manicheans.  Dualism is a heresy: the body wasn't created by the "evil god". No, our body AND our soul were both created good by God, Who is all-perfect.


    Obviously the pleasure is not evil, but the pleasure can be DISORDERED, or excessive.  And you contradict yourself in your eating example:  "So long as you avoid those excesses" ... THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT IS BEING REFERRED TO BY EXCESSIVE PLEASURE.  Same thing can happen with sex.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #13 on: June 19, 2018, 09:52:43 AM »
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  • "These excesses", as you call them, are precisely what are venial sins when deliberate or, otherwise, imperfections.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: bedroom advice needed
    « Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 09:55:21 AM »
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  • With food (and the sin of Gluttony) there are clear metrics to judge by. Are you sluggish and unable to work or pray since you ate too much? Are you in physical discomfort? Do you feel sick from eating too much? How many pounds or plates of food did you eat? How much time or money did you spend preparing your food?

    But I don't see any clear-cut guidelines for what pleasure is "normal" and what is "excessive" in the marriage bed.

    Assuming no artificial birth control is being used, how does one define the red line of "excessive pleasure". Venereal pleasure is venereal pleasure...

    Is there some kind of 1-10 scale? (like at the hospital where doctors have a 1 to 10 scale for pain, so they can get feedback from their patients as to how much pain they're in)

    Matthew