With food (and the sin of Gluttony) there are clear metrics to judge by. Are you sluggish and unable to work or pray since you ate too much? Are you in physical discomfort? Do you feel sick from eating too much? How many pounds or plates of food did you eat? How much time or money did you spend preparing your food?

But I don't see any clear-cut guidelines for what pleasure is "normal" and what is "excessive" in the marriage bed.

Assuming no artificial birth control is being used, how does one define the red line of "excessive pleasure". Venereal pleasure is venereal pleasure...

Is there some kind of 1-10 scale? (like at the hospital where doctors have a 1 to 10 scale for pain, so they can get feedback from their patients as to how much pain they're in)

Matthew

As I said, the point at which it become excessive can be subjective, but it's a real theoretical possibility.  You can't deny the possibility of venial sin simply because it's difficult to determine when it happens.  There are a lot of sins that progress along a relatively-vague continuum ... including gluttony.

Is one piece of cake gluttony?  Unlikely.  Are two pieces?  Maybe.  Three?  Most likely.  Ten?  Undoubtedly.  There's no hard fast rule (i.e "clear metric") as to how much cake you have to eat before it becomes a sin.  Or how fast you eat it.  So, even with eating, there's a certain amount of subjectivity to it.  So much for the "clear metrics".  When you get to two pounds of cake, then there's no longer any doubt.  Similarly, with sex, you usually know when you crossed that line.

As I said, the point at which it become excessive can be subjective, but it's a real theoretical possibility.  You can't deny the possibility of venial sin simply because it's difficult to determine when it happens.  There are a lot of sins that progress along a relatively-vague continuum ... including gluttony.

Is one piece of cake gluttony?  Unlikely.  Are two pieces?  Maybe.  Three?  Most likely.  Ten?  Undoubtedly.  There's no hard fast rule (i.e "clear metric") as to how much cake you have to eat before it becomes a sin.  Or how fast you eat it.  So, even with eating, there's a certain amount of subjectivity to it.  So much for the "clear metrics".  When you get to two pounds of cake, then there's no longer any doubt.  Similarly, with sex, you usually know when you crossed that line.

The problem is, no one ever gets specific about what constitutes a discrete entity -- "a piece of cake" -- in the sex world. Is it "minutes of being together"? Is it "# of body parts involved"? or what?
In the case of gluttony, you know you've crossed the line because you feel sluggish, have a stomachache, feel sick, etc. afterward. But in the case of sex, what if you're not excluding the primary motive (begetting of children)? How do you know when "you've gone too far"?

There sure isn't much information, considering how important a topic this is. It affects most laymen, since the majority of mankind is (was, or will be) married.

The ambiguity and lack of information is PRECISELY what allows heretics like "Heitanen" to step in and preach Puritan values in this matter. And I'm sure there are others on the other side wishing to preach their liberal stance on the matter. Why can't there be guidelines, somewhere, in a moral theology manual or something? There are a lot of Cathlolics of good will wanting to get this right.

And don't say, "Oh, you know...you just know" because in today's world, you can't "know" anything just by osmosis. The world is so messed up and sex-crazed, we can't take anything for granted. Culture is no help today.

I think, though, that there's no ambiguity that there isn't mortal sin unless the primary end is frustrated or subordinated, and that anything short of that is venial sin at the most.  So there's no ambiguity that would justify Heitanen et al.

But you're right, no one can describe exactly when one crosses over into venial sin territory.  I just don't think it's all that clearer to sense when one has crossed over into gluttony.

That was I.

And it's obviously Catholic teaching that pleasure is not evil; that's been duly condemned a few times.

How about one spouse pushing for behaviors (a la "swinging from trapeze") that the other spouse does not wish to engage in? Would this not be an indication of disorder?