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Author Topic: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics  (Read 1883 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2018, 11:52:46 AM »
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  • Why would canon law prohibit the baptism of an infant that will not be raised Catholic?  Give the kid a chance at least...
    Trent's Catechism:
    "The faithful are also to be instructed in the necessary dispositions for Baptism. In the first place they must desire and intend to receive it; for as in Baptism we all die to sin and resolve to live a new life, it is fit that it be administered to those only who receive it of their own free will and accord; it is to be forced upon none. Hence we learn from holy tradition that it has been the invariable practice to administer Baptism to no individual without previously asking him if he be willing to receive it. This disposition even infants are presumed to have, since the will of the Church, which promises for them, cannot be mistaken."

    Because the Church cannot be mistaken, rest assured that She will not permit anyone to be baptized that She knows is not going to be raised Catholic.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #16 on: August 17, 2018, 04:57:03 PM »
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  •  I've heard stories of missionaries baptizing natives in some pretty creative ways, and they (the North American Martyrs) became saints.
    Were they exempt from asking permission because of their missionary status?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #17 on: August 17, 2018, 05:02:42 PM »
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  • It was also common practice for nursing students to be taught how to baptize during their training.

    In a medical emergency they didn't ask permission.  This was in the past when the mother was probably unconscious and the father wasn't allowed in the delivery room.

    Every prayer book states the proper way for a lay person to baptize in an emergency, yet NOT EVEN ONE states that you should ask the person if they want to be baptized.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #18 on: August 17, 2018, 09:23:53 PM »
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  • So who is really left in the lurch? It's really the poor unchurched child that follows the proscriptions of the NO and can't enter heaven if they die before the age of reason.

    And the answer is always in God's providence.  There's a reason that God allows certain souls to be born among pagans and others to Catholic parents.

    But the Church's teaching has always been that people should be properly prepared to receive the Sacrament.  As adults, that meant a sometimes-lengthy period of instruction and testing.  For infants, that happens vicariously through the parents and the intention/promise to provide such instruction as the child grows toward the age of reason.  It's the same difference.

    We apply Catholic principles and leave the rest up to God.  We do not do theology based on emotion.

    So what's the logical consequence?  If I'm a nurse who works the maternity ward, do I just go around randomly baptizing every infant?  This does grave harm to the Sacrament.  As a priest, do I go around shoving consecrated Hosts into people's mouths because of the graces they would receive from this ... regardless of whether the person might be a Catholic, in a state of grace, and properly disposed (fasting)?  The Church has always taught and held that people must be PROPERLY DISPOSED to receive the Sacraments; otherwise their reception would be sacrilege.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #19 on: August 17, 2018, 09:25:04 PM »
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  • Emergency baptisms are only for children.  Adults should not be baptized, even in an emergency, without consent.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #20 on: August 17, 2018, 09:27:53 PM »
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  • Every prayer book states the proper way for a lay person to baptize in an emergency, yet NOT EVEN ONE states that you should ask the person if they want to be baptized.

    That's simply assumed.  If the person is conscious, then they must indicate their desire to receive the Sacrament.  And the Holy Office stated that even in danger of death, the Sacrament could not be conferred without at least a basic minimal catechesis (of the four essential truths of the faith).  Then, even when a person falls unconscious, there must have been some PRIOR indication of the person's interest in becoming a Catholic.  Just ask any priest who has had courses in pastoral theology and not rely on an oversimplified "prayer book".

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #21 on: August 17, 2018, 11:08:37 PM »
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  • So what's the logical consequence?  If I'm a nurse who works the maternity ward, do I just go around randomly baptizing every infant?  This does grave harm to the Sacrament.  As a priest, do I go around shoving consecrated Hosts into people's mouths because of the graces they would receive from this ... regardless of whether the person might be a Catholic, in a state of grace, and properly disposed (fasting)?  The Church has always taught and held that people must be PROPERLY DISPOSED to receive the Sacraments; otherwise their reception would be sacrilege.  
    No of course you can't baptize every HEALTHY infant, no one is saying you should!  but what about a dying newborn? Would the baptism be valid? I would think it a sin not to baptize that baby. In many circuмstances every second counts. It's literally do or die. What are the consequences of NOT baptizing in those circuмstances? This puts a lot of pressure on the person trying to make that decision in a dire situation.What does properly disposed mean when facing the impending death of a child? 

    Also, why DOES the Church acknowledge the validity of baptisms from most other protestant sects when they know the person/ infant/parents are not properly disposed ? 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #22 on: August 18, 2018, 06:27:58 AM »
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  • No of course you can't baptize every HEALTHY infant, no one is saying you should!  but what about a dying newborn? Would the baptism be valid? I would think it a sin not to baptize that baby. In many circuмstances every second counts. It's literally do or die. What are the consequences of NOT baptizing in those circuмstances? This puts a lot of pressure on the person trying to make that decision in a dire situation.What does properly disposed mean when facing the impending death of a child?

    Also, why DOES the Church acknowledge the validity of baptisms from most other protestant sects when they know the person/ infant/parents are not properly disposed ?
    Of course the baptism would be valid for a dying newborn, just the same as it would be valid for any healthy person - and yes, an infant whose death is certainly imminent, can be baptized by anyone and should be baptized without delay. Should that child live, the parents are responsible to raise the child a Catholic.

    Regardless of whatever false religion it happens, all baptisms done properly are valid, but adults who receive it outside of the Church as if it is nothing more than a type of initiation, commit a sacrilege and are in sin immediately after they are baptized - because not only did they receive the sacrament with an improper disposition, they received it for the wrong reason altogether.

    In a nutshell, for those baptized outside the Church, if they had known the Church's actual requirements for the reception of the sacrament, they would have never desired or wanted to be baptized at all.

    The sacraments belong exclusively to the Church, the  Church is the *only* guardian and protector of the sacraments, as such, She makes the rules. You want Her sacrament? - then you must be Catholic, *that's* the foundational rule and it applies to all of the seven sacraments all of the time. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #23 on: August 18, 2018, 10:10:39 AM »
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  • Somewhat related.

    Occasionally someone, such as a well-meaning grandmother, tries to baptize a child of Catholic parents before the baptism in Church. However, this is not appropriate if there are no reasons to believe the child is in danger of death.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #24 on: August 18, 2018, 01:17:55 PM »
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  • No of course you can't baptize every HEALTHY infant, no one is saying you should!  but what about a dying newborn? Would the baptism be valid? I would think it a sin not to baptize that baby. In many circuмstances every second counts. It's literally do or die. What are the consequences of NOT baptizing in those circuмstances? This puts a lot of pressure on the person trying to make that decision in a dire situation.What does properly disposed mean when facing the impending death of a child?

    Also, why DOES the Church acknowledge the validity of baptisms from most other protestant sects when they know the person/ infant/parents are not properly disposed ?

    At no point did anyone say that these would not be valid.  Question is whether it would be licit or whether it would be a sin against the Sacrament.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Baptism for children of non-practicing catholics
    « Reply #25 on: August 18, 2018, 10:18:59 PM »
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  • we are not active members of a church.
    Find a good traditional Catholic parish that doesn't do the idolatrous Novus Ordo mass. Idolatry leads to sodomy (cf. Rom. 1:21 ff.).