When investigating the validity of a baptism performed by a non-Catholic, how would the Church determine whether or not the intent was correct?  Assume matter and form were correct, and now the only thing left to determine if intent was correct.  I understand that often in the past, converts from protestantism were conditionally baptized because it was difficult to determine intent.  In this instance, the person administering the intent is available for questioning.  

Keep in mind that:

-Anyone CAN validly baptize, so long as matter, form and intent are correct.
-The personal faith of the minister does not effect at all whether or not the sacrament is valid
-Neither is it required that the person understand the effect of the sacrament, nor that they believe it to occur.

Quoting from McHugh and Callan:

"objectively, there must be an intention of doing what the Church
does (i.e., of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, for the
minister acts in the name and authority of Christ). Hence a mock
sacrament--or even, more probably, a purely external performance with
no purpose to enact a sacred rite--does not suffice. But, on the other
hand, an unbeliever can administer validly if he really intends to do
what Christians do or what Christ commanded to be done."

Would you ask the minister "Did you perform the baptism with the intent of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, in order to do what Christ has commanded done?"  This seems like the best way to ask the question.  If the minister answers in the affirmative, would the Church accept this to satisfy any doubts as to intention?

Please especially cite sources if you have them.

From what I understand about the sacraments, the reason why the form and matter in the old rite is observed religiously was because this was a way to ensure intent.  I am of the understanding that Holy Mother Church supplies what is lacking out of charity, especially since the faithful come in faith.

Here is my question, a long time ago, before I truly understood much about my faith, my brother got together with a professed witch/new age/tree hugger etc. girl.  She got pregnant and they had a baby boy.  This girl hated everything catholic, even though she was raised as one.  One day they left my nephew with me to babysit and i took this opportunity to baptize the child - I figured my brother wouldn't mind since he was pretty "open" to anything, and also to protect the child from his mother.
Was this bad? Should I confess this as a sin? If this was the wrong thing to do how do I correct it?

I think this is true, but I think that the axiom of assuming intent based on matter and form depends on it being a Catholic who is supplying the matter and form.  Or, to put it another way:

If a Catholic minister is using the Catholic form and the Catholic matter, we can assume he has the proper intent.

That makes sense.

Juxtapose it with:

A non-Catholic minister using a Catholic form and Catholic matter.  Can we assume the intent?  I don't know, but that seems to throw a wrench in it.  

On the other hand, the Church regards the Orthodox as having valid sacraments.  So perhaps we can assume intent based on matter and form alone?  The Orthodox are certainly not Catholic.

As to the baptism you performed on your nephew, I do not think we are supposed to baptize a child against the wishes of a parent.  I do not know what the rule is when the parent is ambivalent.  You should ask a priest.

Quote from: Guest

When investigating the validity of a baptism performed by a non-Catholic, how would the Church determine whether or not the intent was correct?  Assume matter and form were correct, and now the only thing left to determine if intent was correct.  I understand that often in the past, converts from protestantism were conditionally baptized because it was difficult to determine intent.  In this instance, the person administering the intent is available for questioning.  

Keep in mind that:

-Anyone CAN validly baptize, so long as matter, form and intent are correct.
-The personal faith of the minister does not effect at all whether or not the sacrament is valid
-Neither is it required that the person understand the effect of the sacrament, nor that they believe it to occur.

Quoting from McHugh and Callan:

"objectively, there must be an intention of doing what the Church
does (i.e., of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, for the
minister acts in the name and authority of Christ). Hence a mock
sacrament--or even, more probably, a purely external performance with
no purpose to enact a sacred rite--does not suffice. But, on the other
hand, an unbeliever can administer validly if he really intends to do
what Christians do or what Christ commanded to be done."

Would you ask the minister "Did you perform the baptism with the intent of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, in order to do what Christ has commanded done?"  This seems like the best way to ask the question.  If the minister answers in the affirmative, would the Church accept this to satisfy any doubts as to intention?

Please especially cite sources if you have them.

I think this is why there is ecuмenical dialogue. This is why the baptismal certificate from a Baptist church is valid and the baptismal certificate from the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons are not. I think one of the questions is "What do you understand Bapism to be?" or "How do you people understand Baptism?"

No, Poche, that's not it.

Ultimately, their understanding of baptism is irrelevant.  Although it can contribute to them having the correct intent, the Church teaches that even heretics and apostates can baptize validly.  

Quote from: Guest

Quote from: Guest

When investigating the validity of a baptism performed by a non-Catholic, how would the Church determine whether or not the intent was correct?  Assume matter and form were correct, and now the only thing left to determine if intent was correct.  I understand that often in the past, converts from protestantism were conditionally baptized because it was difficult to determine intent.  In this instance, the person administering the intent is available for questioning.  

Keep in mind that:

-Anyone CAN validly baptize, so long as matter, form and intent are correct.
-The personal faith of the minister does not effect at all whether or not the sacrament is valid
-Neither is it required that the person understand the effect of the sacrament, nor that they believe it to occur.

Quoting from McHugh and Callan:

"objectively, there must be an intention of doing what the Church
does (i.e., of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, for the
minister acts in the name and authority of Christ). Hence a mock
sacrament--or even, more probably, a purely external performance with
no purpose to enact a sacred rite--does not suffice. But, on the other
hand, an unbeliever can administer validly if he really intends to do
what Christians do or what Christ commanded to be done."

Would you ask the minister "Did you perform the baptism with the intent of performing a sacred rite instituted by Christ, in order to do what Christ has commanded done?"  This seems like the best way to ask the question.  If the minister answers in the affirmative, would the Church accept this to satisfy any doubts as to intention?

Please especially cite sources if you have them.

I think this is why there is ecuмenical dialogue. This is why the baptismal certificate from a Baptist church is valid and the baptismal certificate from the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons are not. I think one of the questions is "What do you understand Bapism to be?" or "How do you people understand Baptism?"

No, Poche, that's not it.

Ultimately, their understanding of baptism is irrelevant.  Although it can contribute to them having the correct intent, the Church teaches that even heretics and apostates can baptize validly.  

Yes but the bapism as it is performed at a Mormon church or a Jehovah Witness Kingdom Hall is not valid. They officially do not have the same intent that the Catholic Church has. The Baptist and teh Methodists have the same intent as the Catholic Church requires and their baptism is valid.