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Author Topic: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?  (Read 4668 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2023, 10:59:05 AM »
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  • We need to quit putting human respect above living the cross of being Catholic.
    Well said.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #16 on: September 28, 2023, 11:10:38 AM »
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    Well, while it was an isolated action and doesn't have an ongoing effect of the child, you have to be careful to avoid giving the appearances of approving, and I would feel that attending such a function and saying "congratulations" would be tantamount to condoning/approving of how the child got there.
    I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?"  

    1.  So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life?  The child will always be an IFV child. 
    2.  Or can you see the family, just not publicly?  This seems like an odd message you're sending.
    3.  Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?

    Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past.  So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past?  This is my issue.


    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #17 on: September 28, 2023, 12:54:55 PM »
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  • Yes, that is the main/largest issue, but there are others as well, which no one has mentioned in this thread.

    The onanism, for example. It's a testament to how debase, decrepit, and degenerate our society has become, that it's actually true that "most guys do it" -- so no one sees a problem with how they "acquire" the seed for the test tube babies.

    There should be some major embarrassment, etc. especially on the part of the man involved in that "congratulations! We conceived by IVF!" situation. But there's not. Because we're living in modern-day Sodom or Gomorrah.

    Putting religion totally aside, arguendo, I can't imagine how a man could be proud of having fathered a child by going into a room and committing a degrading act to acquire the male seed.  (I've heard they usually make p@rn available.)

    Some things should just be seen as obviously wrong by their very nature.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #18 on: September 28, 2023, 01:35:41 PM »
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  • And how will their next child be conceived?  I'd be want to ask WHEN they will allow the other fertilized eggs to be born.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #19 on: September 28, 2023, 01:38:38 PM »
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  • Just don't go if you feel like it's a bad idea. And if they ask, you say the reason and it could open their eyes despite the initial anger and astonishment. You could even convert them.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #20 on: September 28, 2023, 01:53:03 PM »
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  • OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.  

    In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.

    I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.

    Thank you for all your contributions.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #21 on: September 28, 2023, 02:57:43 PM »
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  • I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?" 

    1.  So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life?  The child will always be an IFV child. 
    2.  Or can you see the family, just not publicly?  This seems like an odd message you're sending.
    3.  Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?

    Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past.  So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past?  This is my issue.

    Good points.

    It's not an ongoing sin, like living as husband-and-wife while unmarried. If they converted/confessed it, would they have to un-create the child, or what? See the point?

    What's done is done. I understand the arguments for "not condoning it", but Pax makes good points above. Do you have to shun the family forever, because they used IVF? They can't UN-use it. They can't have it "rectified" not even if they went to confession.

    Matthew

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #22 on: September 28, 2023, 03:36:38 PM »
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  • I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?" 

    1.  So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life?  The child will always be an IFV child. 
    2.  Or can you see the family, just not publicly?  This seems like an odd message you're sending.
    3.  Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?

    Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past.  So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past?  This is my issue.

    I would just skip the shower, precisely because it's a celebration of the child having been conceived.  After that, I wouldn't feel the need to avoid them altogether, etc.  But the CONTEXT is what's important here.  Just running into them, being social, even attending the child's Baptism (where you're celebrating his entry into the Church and supernatural life).  But the entire context of the baby shower is to congratulate them on the conception of new life.

    Let's say someone stole a car, and was having a party to celebrate his acquisition of the car.  Going to the party would be to condone the theft.  But that wouldn't necessarily prevent me from going out to have a few beers with the guy outside of that CONTEXT.  In the latter, there's no endorsement of the sinful theft.

    It's all about the message you're sending.  Now, if you showed up at this shower and publicly denounced the IVF, making it clear you didn't condone it, but were merely there because of the child, that would be another thing.

    Let me make another analogy.  Back in the day if an unmarried young woman (say, teenager) got pregnant out of wedlock, there was a social stigma involved, and the child was usually hidden from sight and mainstream society, etc.  Now people have gone to the opposite extreme, where the unwed mothers are celebrated at baby showers, as if there were nothing wrong with it, sending the message that pre-marital fornication is something to celebrate.  Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby.  But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #23 on: September 28, 2023, 03:42:09 PM »
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  • I would just skip the shower, precisely because it's a celebration of the child having been conceived.  After that, I wouldn't feel the need to avoid them altogether, etc.  But the CONTEXT is what's important here.  Just running into them, being social, even attending the child's Baptism (where you're celebrating his entry into the Church and supernatural life).  But the entire context of the baby shower is to congratulate them on the conception of new life.

    Let's say someone stole a car, and was having a party to celebrate his acquisition of the car.  Going to the party would be to condone the theft.  But that wouldn't necessarily prevent me from going out to have a few beers with the guy outside of that CONTEXT.

    It's all about the message you're sending.  Now, if you showed up at this shower and publicly denounced the IVF, making it clear you didn't condone it, but were merely there because of the child, that would be another thing.

    Let me make another analogy.  Back in the day if an unmarried young woman (say, teenager) got pregnant out of wedlock, there was a social stigma involved, and the child was usually hidden from sight and mainstream society, etc.  Now people have gone to the opposite extreme, where the unwed mothers are celebrated at baby showers, as if there were nothing wrong with it, sending the message that pre-marital fornication is something to celebrate.  Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby.  But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.

    In other words, it's the difference between formal and material cooperation.  When you send the impression you condone the IVF, it's tantamount to formal participation, but visiting with the child in some other context might be material participation, but not formal.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #24 on: September 28, 2023, 04:08:16 PM »
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  • But according to that rationale, one couldn’t attend the baby shower of a single mother, without implicitly condoning extramarital sex?
    I would happily attend the baby shower of a single mother who refused to have an abortion.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #25 on: September 28, 2023, 04:16:44 PM »
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  •   Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby.  But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.
    Having counseled dozens or maybe 100s of unmarried pregant women over several decades, I can tell you that in their hormonal, emotional state, they can easily be pushed into abortion by what may seem to be trivial reasons.

    Our main weapon in helping these women choose life is agape love or unconditional acceptance. Instead of judging them on past errors, we try to see them as Our Lord sees them -- as sinners in need of Him. This is the main thing which helps them choose life.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #26 on: September 28, 2023, 04:18:06 PM »
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  • OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers. 

    In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.

    I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.

    Thank you for all your contributions.
    I'm curious about the priests' answers. Mind to share them?

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #27 on: September 28, 2023, 04:26:19 PM »
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  • Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past.  So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past?  This is my issue.
    It is an ongoing sin if it hasn't been repented of and confessed. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #28 on: September 28, 2023, 04:40:31 PM »
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  • I was one of the priests who answered. I tried posting about a half hour ago and it did not work. I do not have time to give the whole response again. What I will say is that the answer is “no”, you do not go. If the couple does repent of their moral crime, and this crime is among the worst as it is unnatural, you may indeed have something to do with them after the fact. If they do not, which likely is most of the time, then outside of basic civility, you stay away and pray for them. If they are sincerely sorry, then money or a gift could be sent privately, especially if the couple is poor. But no celebration and that includes a baby shower. Baptism, if it can be done lawfully, is to be done privately, that is, in the presence of the priest, the parents and godparents, and that’s it.

    God bless you, 

    Father Sretenovic

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Attend Baby Shower of IVF Conception?
    « Reply #29 on: September 28, 2023, 04:51:00 PM »
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  • OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers. 

    In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.

    I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.

    Thank you for all your contributions.
    First of all, how do you know 5 (!) traditional priests?  Wow. 

    Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing the 5 responses. 

    My gut thinks it might be best to skip the shower, but I don't agree that you shun the child/subsequent events once he/she is born.