Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on September 28, 2023, 08:29:08 AM
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A cousin of mine conceived via IVF.
I can’t recall the reasons this is prohibited, but forgot that it was prohibited when accepting to RSVP at the baby shower.
Must I now back out of this, or is it ok to attend?
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Here’s why IVF is wrong (a rare instance where the conciliar bishops nail it):
https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/reproductive-technology/begotten-not-made-a-catholic-view-of-reproductive-technology
But the question is whether one can attend the baby shower of a child conceived in such a way (ie., is it akin to attending an immoral/invalid wedding reception, whereby the couple will construe your presence as support for the immoral act).
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A cousin of mine conceived via IVF.
I can’t recall the reasons this is prohibited, but forgot that it was prohibited when accepting to RSVP at the baby shower.
Must I now back out of this, or is it ok to attend?
Have you asked your priest? If not, then do that first.
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I would go and gift the baby with a blessed crucifix for the wall in the nursery.
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If the couple having the baby shower is married, then I don't see a problem attending. Yes, IVF is wrong, but that's their sin, not yours. I think the principle is that we avoid situations where our presence would support an ongoing sinful lifestyle. That is, we would avoid attendance at an unmarried or divorced couple's shower. But IVF is more of a one-time sin, not necessarily a lifestyle choice that is anti-catholic.
If a catholic couple separated and the wife had an affair and got pregnant, but then the couple got back together, and amended their ways, you could go to the baby shower. They made a mistake and it's not the child's fault. I don't see how an IVF baby makes a couple living in sin. The only issue would be if the couple openly supports IVF and this baby shower is advertising the good effects of this sin. But that's probably not the case.
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If the couple having the baby shower is married, then I don't see a problem attending. Yes, IVF is wrong, but that's their sin, not yours. I think the principle is that we avoid situations where our presence would support an ongoing sinful lifestyle. That is, we would avoid attendance at an unmarried or divorced couple's shower. But IVF is more of a one-time sin, not necessarily a lifestyle choice that is anti-catholic.
If a catholic couple separated and the wife had an affair and got pregnant, but then the couple got back together, and amended their ways, you could go to the baby shower. They made a mistake and it's not the child's fault. I don't see how an IVF baby makes a couple living in sin. The only issue would be if the couple openly supports IVF and this baby shower is advertising the good effects of this sin. But that's probably not the case.
OP here: In this case, the couple was very open about being excited to try IVF at family functions. Almost certainly it will come up at the shower. They are not religious people, and would not view IVF as sinful or a mistake, and I’m guessing if I told them the Church’s stance on it, they’d scoff.
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I think you should ask a valid priest with a relatively solid seminary training (SSPX, Resistance, CMRI, Roman Catholic Institute, etc.).
Personally, I wouldn't go. If they ask you why, charitably explain them the issue. Say a Hail Mary and a little prayer to your guardian angel so that he guides you in that difficult conversation.
A few months ago, I went through something similar with an acquaintance who asked me to be a witness of his civil "marriage" and I declined. He's not a catholic so it was not a preparation for matrimony and he had been cohabitating with his now "wife" for years. I explained the problem to him and he still talks to me. Your case is more delicate because it may look as if you are rejecting the baby, so make it clear that you are not.
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You’re going to anticipate the birth of the baby, not the method by which it was conceived! Unless you’re going to say the baby doesn’t have a soul? If a woman was raped but decided to keep the baby and raise it, would you refuse to attend the shower? How do you really know the circuмstances under which a baby was conceived unless you were there? A married couple could engage in impure acts in the process and not say anything. None of this is the baby’s fault. He’ll be born with the same Original Sin as anyone else, not more if under sinful circuмstances, not less if his parents were very holy.
I do think it’s in poor taste for a couple to announce the details of the baby’s conception, but again, it’s the couple’s sin, not the coming arrival. I once went to a shower for which the baby was not present. It was an arranged adoption where the birth mother, the pregnant woman, was not present by choice due to her particular circuмstances which the adopting couple did not reveal. The gifts were mainly for the baby, not the adoptive couple. Without the baby, who would give a couple in their late thirties gifts of onsies, bottles, diapers, a diaper bag, crib sheets, receiving blankets, bibs, tiny clothes, a home knit bunting and matching booties, a carriage-stroller, rattles, crib mobile, a cuddly stuffed lamb, powder, baby wash, baby tub…
Go, and celebrate a new soul soon to arrive in this world!
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OP here: In this case, the couple was very open about being excited to try IVF at family functions. Almost certainly it will come up at the shower. They are not religious people, and would not view IVF as sinful or a mistake, and I’m guessing if I told them the Church’s stance on it, they’d scoff.
Not going to the shower is 1) a form of fraternal correction, meant to nudge the conscience of those involved in sin. It is also 2) a public display that you won't participate in some openly sinful actions.
In this case, #2 does not apply, because IVF is not some on-going sinful lifestyle. And (in my opinion), #1 does not apply either, because they aren't catholics, don't believe IVF is wrong, so any fraternal correction would be pointless.
If you want to go, I don't see a problem.
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Well, while it was an isolated action and doesn't have an ongoing effect of the child, you have to be careful to avoid giving the appearances of approving, and I would feel that attending such a function and saying "congratulations" would be tantamount to condoning/approving of how the child got there. I've avoided going to baby showers (causing some family discomfort) where the baby was illegitimate. We let the couple know that they needed to get married and that we can't approve of the situation, and then mailed them some diapers or something in lieu of attending the shower. And the rest of the Conciliar "sheep" "Catholics" just went there approving of the entire situation, etc. Had the entire family refused to show up, that would have sent a strong message, letting them know they're ostracized from the entire extended family ... and that would exert some pressure on them to actually get married.
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Of course, check with a priest.
I never been in this situation but I don't think I could go. The couple sounds very ignorant of why IVF is wrong. I remember reading that for every round of IVF about 7 embryos are destroyed/aborted. How many abortions does it take to make that one healthy baby? And about 95% of embroys are never used to make a baby---either put into storage, experimented on or aborted. I don't understand why the ProLife movement rarely mentions IVF. It is so EVIL.
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By your attendence at the shower you are publically condoning IVF even if you privately disapprove of it.
Do they even intend to have the baby baptized?
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By your attendence at the shower you are publically condoning IVF even if you privately disapprove of it.
Do they even intend to have the baby baptized?
But according to that rationale, one couldn’t attend the baby shower of a single mother, without implicitly condoning extramarital sex?
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Well, while it was an isolated action and doesn't have an ongoing effect of the child, you have to be careful to avoid giving the appearances of approving, and I would feel that attending such a function and saying "congratulations" would be tantamount to condoning/approving of how the child got there. I've avoided going to baby showers (causing some family discomfort) where the baby was illegitimate. We let the couple know that they needed to get married and that we can't approve of the situation, and then mailed them some diapers or something in lieu of attending the shower. And the rest of the Conciliar "sheep" "Catholics" just went there approving of the entire situation, etc. Had the entire family refused to show up, that would have sent a strong message, letting them know they're ostracized from the entire extended family ... and that would exert some pressure on them to actually get married.
This. I wouldn't go. In general. We need to quit putting human respect above living the cross of being Catholic.
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I remember reading that for every round of IVF about 7 embryos are destroyed/aborted. How many abortions does it take to make that one healthy baby? And about 95% of embroys are never used to make a baby---either put into storage, experimented on or aborted. I don't understand why the ProLife movement rarely mentions IVF. It is so EVIL.
Yes, that is the main/largest issue, but there are others as well, which no one has mentioned in this thread.
The onanism, for example. It's a testament to how debase, decrepit, and degenerate our society has become, that it's actually true that "most guys do it" -- so no one sees a problem with how they "acquire" the seed for the test tube babies.
There should be some major embarrassment, etc. especially on the part of the man involved in that "congratulations! We conceived by IVF!" situation. But there's not. Because we're living in modern-day Sodom or Gomorrah.
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We need to quit putting human respect above living the cross of being Catholic.
Well said.
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Well, while it was an isolated action and doesn't have an ongoing effect of the child, you have to be careful to avoid giving the appearances of approving, and I would feel that attending such a function and saying "congratulations" would be tantamount to condoning/approving of how the child got there.
I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?"
1. So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life? The child will always be an IFV child.
2. Or can you see the family, just not publicly? This seems like an odd message you're sending.
3. Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?
Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past. So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past? This is my issue.
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Yes, that is the main/largest issue, but there are others as well, which no one has mentioned in this thread.
The onanism, for example. It's a testament to how debase, decrepit, and degenerate our society has become, that it's actually true that "most guys do it" -- so no one sees a problem with how they "acquire" the seed for the test tube babies.
There should be some major embarrassment, etc. especially on the part of the man involved in that "congratulations! We conceived by IVF!" situation. But there's not. Because we're living in modern-day Sodom or Gomorrah.
Putting religion totally aside, arguendo, I can't imagine how a man could be proud of having fathered a child by going into a room and committing a degrading act to acquire the male seed. (I've heard they usually make p@rn available.)
Some things should just be seen as obviously wrong by their very nature.
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And how will their next child be conceived? I'd be want to ask WHEN they will allow the other fertilized eggs to be born.
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Just don't go if you feel like it's a bad idea. And if they ask, you say the reason and it could open their eyes despite the initial anger and astonishment. You could even convert them.
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OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.
In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.
I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.
Thank you for all your contributions.
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I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?"
1. So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life? The child will always be an IFV child.
2. Or can you see the family, just not publicly? This seems like an odd message you're sending.
3. Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?
Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past. So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past? This is my issue.
Good points.
It's not an ongoing sin, like living as husband-and-wife while unmarried. If they converted/confessed it, would they have to un-create the child, or what? See the point?
What's done is done. I understand the arguments for "not condoning it", but Pax makes good points above. Do you have to shun the family forever, because they used IVF? They can't UN-use it. They can't have it "rectified" not even if they went to confession.
Matthew
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I agree with this, but struggle ask "Where do you draw the line?"
1. So if you avoid the baby shower, do you also avoid the child/parents for the rest of their life? The child will always be an IFV child.
2. Or can you see the family, just not publicly? This seems like an odd message you're sending.
3. Or do you wait for the baby to be born, then ignore the IVF issue after that?
Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past. So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past? This is my issue.
I would just skip the shower, precisely because it's a celebration of the child having been conceived. After that, I wouldn't feel the need to avoid them altogether, etc. But the CONTEXT is what's important here. Just running into them, being social, even attending the child's Baptism (where you're celebrating his entry into the Church and supernatural life). But the entire context of the baby shower is to congratulate them on the conception of new life.
Let's say someone stole a car, and was having a party to celebrate his acquisition of the car. Going to the party would be to condone the theft. But that wouldn't necessarily prevent me from going out to have a few beers with the guy outside of that CONTEXT. In the latter, there's no endorsement of the sinful theft.
It's all about the message you're sending. Now, if you showed up at this shower and publicly denounced the IVF, making it clear you didn't condone it, but were merely there because of the child, that would be another thing.
Let me make another analogy. Back in the day if an unmarried young woman (say, teenager) got pregnant out of wedlock, there was a social stigma involved, and the child was usually hidden from sight and mainstream society, etc. Now people have gone to the opposite extreme, where the unwed mothers are celebrated at baby showers, as if there were nothing wrong with it, sending the message that pre-marital fornication is something to celebrate. Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby. But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.
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I would just skip the shower, precisely because it's a celebration of the child having been conceived. After that, I wouldn't feel the need to avoid them altogether, etc. But the CONTEXT is what's important here. Just running into them, being social, even attending the child's Baptism (where you're celebrating his entry into the Church and supernatural life). But the entire context of the baby shower is to congratulate them on the conception of new life.
Let's say someone stole a car, and was having a party to celebrate his acquisition of the car. Going to the party would be to condone the theft. But that wouldn't necessarily prevent me from going out to have a few beers with the guy outside of that CONTEXT.
It's all about the message you're sending. Now, if you showed up at this shower and publicly denounced the IVF, making it clear you didn't condone it, but were merely there because of the child, that would be another thing.
Let me make another analogy. Back in the day if an unmarried young woman (say, teenager) got pregnant out of wedlock, there was a social stigma involved, and the child was usually hidden from sight and mainstream society, etc. Now people have gone to the opposite extreme, where the unwed mothers are celebrated at baby showers, as if there were nothing wrong with it, sending the message that pre-marital fornication is something to celebrate. Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby. But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.
In other words, it's the difference between formal and material cooperation. When you send the impression you condone the IVF, it's tantamount to formal participation, but visiting with the child in some other context might be material participation, but not formal.
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But according to that rationale, one couldn’t attend the baby shower of a single mother, without implicitly condoning extramarital sex?
I would happily attend the baby shower of a single mother who refused to have an abortion.
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Then there's the Pro-Life angle, where they overdo things to the other extreme, claiming that shaming the girl might lead them to have an abortion, so basically they throw wild parties to celebrate the fact that someone didn't murder a baby. But the message gets conflated, where it becomes an implicit endorsement of fornication and having children out of wedlock.
Having counseled dozens or maybe 100s of unmarried pregant women over several decades, I can tell you that in their hormonal, emotional state, they can easily be pushed into abortion by what may seem to be trivial reasons.
Our main weapon in helping these women choose life is agape love or unconditional acceptance. Instead of judging them on past errors, we try to see them as Our Lord sees them -- as sinners in need of Him. This is the main thing which helps them choose life.
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OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.
In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.
I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.
Thank you for all your contributions.
I'm curious about the priests' answers. Mind to share them?
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Practically speaking, IVF is not an ongoing sin, so immoral as it is, it's in the past. So how long is one obligated to protest an immoral act from the past? This is my issue.
It is an ongoing sin if it hasn't been repented of and confessed.
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I was one of the priests who answered. I tried posting about a half hour ago and it did not work. I do not have time to give the whole response again. What I will say is that the answer is “no”, you do not go. If the couple does repent of their moral crime, and this crime is among the worst as it is unnatural, you may indeed have something to do with them after the fact. If they do not, which likely is most of the time, then outside of basic civility, you stay away and pray for them. If they are sincerely sorry, then money or a gift could be sent privately, especially if the couple is poor. But no celebration and that includes a baby shower. Baptism, if it can be done lawfully, is to be done privately, that is, in the presence of the priest, the parents and godparents, and that’s it.
God bless you,
Father Sretenovic
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OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.
In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.
I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.
Thank you for all your contributions.
First of all, how do you know 5 (!) traditional priests? Wow.
Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing the 5 responses.
My gut thinks it might be best to skip the shower, but I don't agree that you shun the child/subsequent events once he/she is born.
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OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.
In any case, because of the muddiness surrounding the issue, and my personal discomfort, I informed the couple that “I’d forgotten we have a serious conflict” and cannot attend.
I did not feel it necessary to explain, since it is nearly certain they’d scoff at the religious objection.
Thank you for all your contributions.
If they scoff simply bear your cross. I think it would be good to speak the true reason why you won't come, it might even change their perspective.
As a side question, isn't IVF effectively murder? All the other fertilized eggs get 'destroyed' do they not? I am not too familiar with it.
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If they scoff simply bear your cross. I think it would be good to speak the true reason why you won't come, it might even change their perspective.
As a side question, isn't IVF effectively murder? All the other fertilized eggs get 'destroyed' do they not? I am not too familiar with it.
Also I forgot, it also encourages the grave sin of masturbation. Just be polite and explain it in a way so that the parents do not consider abortion of the IVF child.
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A cousin of mine conceived via IVF.
Why'd your cousin tell you how they conceived a child?
Isn't it immodest or lewd going around telling people how one's baby was conceived? Implicit in saying one conceived via IVF is: "I masturbated" and "I killed several babies to obtain one live one."
It's like boasting ("coming out") that one's a fag.
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Why'd your cousin tell you how they conceived a child?
Isn't it immodest or lewd going around telling people how one's baby was conceived? Implicit in saying one conceived via IVF is: "I masturbated" and "I killed several babies to obtain one live one."
It's like boasting ("coming out") that one's a fag.
To the average person these days with a damaged conscience, I doubt it even crossed their mind as being lewd. In fact, IVF is more seen as a loving and virtuous thing to do these days. It’s 100% backwards. 🥴
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Why'd your cousin tell you how they conceived a child?
Isn't it immodest or lewd going around telling people how one's baby was conceived? Implicit in saying one conceived via IVF is: "I masturbated" and "I killed several babies to obtain one live one."
It's like boasting ("coming out") that one's a fag.
OP here: Talking to them would do no good, they are so warped. They think IVF science is glorious. Shame never enters the mind. It’s “medical” so it’s not self-abuse, they rationalize, it’s”a procedure.”
The sin has been sanitized, and the shame with it.
As an example of how far gone they are, here’s a pic they posted on their Facebook page:
(https://i.imgur.com/9BtcJw7.jpg)
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Good grief! I couldn’t bear the thought of being in their company.
As others have intimated on this thread IVF is objectively far worse than abortion (murder). Even before going ahead with “the procedure” you must be undertake to commit to abort if something goes wrong. You know it’s bad advertising not produce an imperfect baby.
And of course there are all those “spares” they keep in the freezer. What will they decide to do with them?
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But according to that rationale, one couldn’t attend the baby shower of a single mother, without implicitly condoning extramarital sex?
So, if a couple is adopting a baby via arrangement with a pregnant young lady who can’t raise the child, going to the shower implies my approval of fornication, adultery, rape, or even incest? Then I guess I committed a serious sin in going to the baby shower of an unborn child being adopted by the woman’s drug addict sister. This child is the second such baby they’ve adopted. The birth fathers and circuмstances of conception of both children is unknown. DNA testing reveals only that the elder child is of Northern European and German heritage. The second is German and East Asian, possibly Vietnamese. The boy, baby no.1, is normal. The girl, baby #2 was born with brain damage and is developmentally disabled. Both children are baptized and being raised Catholic.
But even if not, I don’t understand not celebrating the arrival of a baby because of how he was conceived. My only question for the OP is their association with the couple. Is it a relative? A neighbor? Colleagues from work or school? Someone from before you became Catholic? Would you attend if you didn’t know about the IVF? (I agree it is in bad taste to announce such a thing, but people these days have little to no sense of decorum. A look on any social media makes that obvious.)
If the couple themselves disturbs you too much to attend, then at least send a card and a small gift for the actual baby.
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Why'd your cousin tell you how they conceived a child?
Isn't it immodest or lewd going around telling people how one's baby was conceived? Implicit in saying one conceived via IVF is: "I masturbated" and "I killed several babies to obtain one live one."
It's like boasting ("coming out") that one's a fag.
Absolutely! It’s no excuse, but most people have no sense of decorum, revealing to the public what ought to be private. A quick look on social media will tell you that. So will a trip to Home Depot in summer. People walk around in public showing all sorts of things that should remain private.
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So, if a couple is adopting a baby via arrangement with a pregnant young lady who can’t raise the child, going to the shower implies my approval of fornication, adultery, rape, or even incest? Then I guess I committed a serious sin in going to the baby shower of an unborn child being adopted FROM the woman’s drug addict sister. This child is the second such baby they’ve adopted. The birth fathers and circuмstances of conception of both children is unknown. DNA testing reveals only that the elder child is of Northern European and German heritage. The second is German and East Asian, possibly Vietnamese. The boy, baby no.1, is normal. The girl, baby #2 was born with brain damage and is developmentally disabled. Both children are baptized and being raised Catholic.
But even if not, I don’t understand not celebrating the arrival of a baby because of how he was conceived. My only question for the OP is their association with the couple. Is it a relative? A neighbor? Colleagues from work or school? Someone from before you became Catholic? Would you attend if you didn’t know about the IVF? (I agree it is in bad taste to announce such a thing, but people these days have little to no sense of decorum. A look on any social media makes that obvious.)
If the couple themselves disturbs you too much to attend, then at least send a card and a small gift for the actual baby.
NOTE BOLDFACE CORRECTION! It was too late to modify!
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NOTE BOLDFACE CORRECTION! It was too late to modify!
You cannot modify Anonymous posts.
If you tick the box, you can edit. As long as you've ticked the box and been "named", you might as well tick for the edit.
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First of all, how do you know 5 (!) traditional priests? Wow.
Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing the 5 responses.
My gut thinks it might be best to skip the shower, but I don't agree that you shun the child/subsequent events once he/she is born.
I kind of agree that the couple are really low-class or ignorant to broadcast such a thing. If that’s going to be the centerpiece of the shower, it wouldn’t be right to attend, but I would not shun the child for the sins of its parents. If the child is a relative, that especially is not right. Instead, I’d acknowledge the birth of the child and do I could to pray for the couple and see that the child is influenced to become Catholic. Often, children end up leading the parents in such such matters.
As for correcting the couple, that requires much prayer and wisdom. If you come on like gangbusters, it’s likely to make them think you bear hatred for the child, and from then on, your influence will be nil. A baby shower or family gathering of any sort is neither time nor place to raise the issue. It sounds as if they are truly ignorant that IVF is wrong, that the male preparatory actions are wrong, that freezing embryos is wrong, and that “reducing” the number of babies conceived is wrong. IOW, people raised without moral standards or with low morals are ignorant. The same thing holds for someone who’s had an organ transplant or has donated their own or someone else’s organs in the belief that the donor is truly dead, therefore, it is a noble act.
I have a cousin who had a double lung transplant. (No, not Catholic.) Do I rebuke her for being alive and refuse to associate with her? You can’t undo a lung transplant. (Well, you can, but the doctor who does it is guilty of murder and my cousin and those that approve are guilty of ѕυιcιdє or aiding in ѕυιcιdє and murder!) What about her daughter? Her grandkids? Her husband? These are not people I see on any kind of regular basis, but I’ve often wondered where to draw the line.
Is it my duty to correct the sins of distant relatives? What about getting a list of people who have designated themselves organ donors on their auto licenses? I used to check people’s licenses all day when I was a cashier and they wanted to pay by check or credit card. Should I have corrected or rebuked each one, and if that wasn’t feasible, quit my job?
If even good priests disagree, what then? I’m no moral theologian, but I believe the Church says a Catholic must follow the advice of his confessor or go with one’s conscience. If a person has absolutely no idea, then he may safely follow the majority (Church) opinion.
BTW, I’ve thought about it and I personally know a total of nine traditional priests, those who know me by name. Unfortunately, three are deceased and three are stationed overseas on different continents, one is cancelled and is a hermit of sorts, location unknown since 2015. That leaves two accessible, one a fifteen hour drive away, and the one whose Mass I attend. He is located 2 1/2 hours away.
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You cannot modify Anonymous posts.
If you tick the box, you can edit. As long as you've ticked the box and been "named", you might as well tick for the edit.
Thank you! I didn’t know that.
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These are hard situations for Catholics. Increasingly, modern culture expects us to compromise our morals and “go along to get along,” out of human respect. Those who resist are considered “puritans and prudes” (I hate how that term is always used to cast dispersion on the 6th and 9th Commandments) for not celebrating sin. But every time we cave, we’re not standing up for God, and rarely does anyone get the message of fraternal correction.
I think just sending a gift for the baby and skipping the shower is a good idea.
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You cannot modify Anonymous posts.
If you tick the box, you can edit. As long as you've ticked the box and been "named", you might as well tick for the edit.
Yes, you have to tick the box again when you modify....or else the post changes from named to anonymous.
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I would NOT go and gift the baby with a blessed crucifix for the wall in the nursery.
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Mail a blessed crucifix for the baby. But don’t go.
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So, if a couple is adopting a baby via arrangement with a pregnant young lady who can’t raise the child, going to the shower implies my approval of fornication, adultery, rape, or even incest? Then I guess I committed a serious sin in going to the baby shower of an unborn child being adopted by the woman’s drug addict sister. This child is the second such baby they’ve adopted. The birth fathers and circuмstances of conception of both children is unknown. DNA testing reveals only that the elder child is of Northern European and German heritage. The second is German and East Asian, possibly Vietnamese. The boy, baby no.1, is normal. The girl, baby #2 was born with brain damage and is developmentally disabled. Both children are baptized and being raised Catholic.
But even if not, I don’t understand not celebrating the arrival of a baby because of how he was conceived. My only question for the OP is their association with the couple. Is it a relative? A neighbor? Colleagues from work or school? Someone from before you became Catholic? Would you attend if you didn’t know about the IVF? (I agree it is in bad taste to announce such a thing, but people these days have little to no sense of decorum. A look on any social media makes that obvious.)
If the couple themselves disturbs you too much to attend, then at least send a card and a small gift for the actual baby.
In that case, the adopting couple did not commit sin. It was the drug addict sister that did the sin, so that is fine to attend the baby shower, but in the case that was originally brought up, it the couple that committed the sin and is having the baby shower. So, the two cases are different.
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Stay home because many of these people are getting needles
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Stay home because many of these people are getting needles
You mean for the C-sickness? I had the C-sickness naturally, recovered, am not afraid of it.If I were, I’d be at home, isolating myself, wearing a mask, etc.
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OP here: I asked 5 traditional priests, and 3 responded with 3 different answers.
This is why "ask a priest" is often terrible advice. It should be "ask a holy and well-formed priest if you have one"
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This is why "ask a priest" is often terrible advice. It should be "ask a holy and well-formed priest if you have one"
Given the state of the Church, "ask a priest" is worthless advice where it comes to theological approaches to the Crisis. I might make sense with regard to established questions of theology, like asking a priest about the Holy Trinity or Immaculate Conception, etc. But questions about whether SVism is right or R&R, the answer will depend on which group the priest belongs to.
Same goes with moral theology, as in general they're probably educated in many of the core principles, but where it comes to applying them to concrete situations, and prudential judgments, you'll probably get answers all over the map.
And, sadly, there are many seminary-trained priests who simply didn't absorb much of what they were taught there. I've known priests ordained through SSPX who didn't know 10% as much as your average poster on CathInfo. And I've known a few priests who were ordained prior to Vatican II whose knowledge did not exceed the contents of the Baltimore Catechism.
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So, if a couple is adopting a baby via arrangement with a pregnant young lady who can’t raise the child, going to the shower implies my approval of fornication, adultery, rape, or even incest? Then I guess I committed a serious sin in going to the baby shower of an unborn child being adopted by the woman’s drug addict sister.
That makes no sense. As I said, it's the context that matters. This couple adopting the child are doing something praiseworthy. You're celebrating this couple welcoming the child into their family, not the original circuмstances of how the baby was produced. Now, if the couple who were throwing the baby shower had conceived the child through adultery or fornication, that's not something to celebrate, but adoption by a different couple, the context of what you'd be celebrating, is a completely different thing.
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And, sadly, there are many seminary-trained priests who simply didn't absorb much of what they were taught there. I've known priests ordained through SSPX who didn't know 10% as much as your average poster on CathInfo. And I've known a few priests who were ordained prior to Vatican II whose knowledge did not exceed the contents of the Baltimore Catechism.
That would exceed the knowledge of many a post-Vatican II priest.
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OP here: Talking to them would do no good, they are so warped. They think IVF science is glorious. Shame never enters the mind. It’s “medical” so it’s not self-abuse, they rationalize, it’s”a procedure.”
The sin has been sanitized, and the shame with it.
As an example of how far gone they are, here’s a pic they posted on their Facebook page:
(https://i.imgur.com/9BtcJw7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/00xiQc7.png)
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I have a cousin who had a double lung transplant. (No, not Catholic.) Do I rebuke her for being alive and refuse to associate with her? You can’t undo a lung transplant. (Well, you can, but the doctor who does it is guilty of murder and my cousin and those that approve are guilty of ѕυιcιdє or aiding in ѕυιcιdє and murder!) What about her daughter? Her grandkids? Her husband? These are not people I see on any kind of regular basis, but I’ve often wondered where to draw the line.
Is it my duty to correct the sins of distant relatives? What about getting a list of people who have designated themselves organ donors on their auto licenses? I used to check people’s licenses all day when I was a cashier and they wanted to pay by check or credit card. Should I have corrected or rebuked each one, and if that wasn’t feasible, quit my job?
Now what is wrong with being an organ donor? Why do you care people have it on their license? The only people I have heard rejecting organ donation POST MORTEM are jehovas witness. In what world is it wrong to donate organs you no longer need (because you are dead)??
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Now what is wrong with being an organ donor? Why do you care people have it on their license? The only people I have heard rejecting organ donation POST MORTEM are jehovas witness. In what world is it wrong to donate organs you no longer need (because you are dead)??
Because the donors aren't actually dead. Vital organs are not viable for transplant if decomposition has begun so the idea of "brain death" was introduced.
One of the very few teaching about this reality is Dr. Paul Byrne. I think you will find that your time was well spent in listening to what he has to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9duZQypfA4&t=4s
https://lifeguardianfoundation.org/
If you are short on time: https://lifeguardianfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Organ-donation-Question-4-14-17.pdf
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Now what is wrong with being an organ donor? Why do you care people have it on their license? The only people I have heard rejecting organ donation POST MORTEM are jehovas witness. In what world is it wrong to donate organs you no longer need (because you are dead)??
The problem with organ donation is that, in many cases, the “donor is not POST MORTOM, but living and anaesthetised.
There are some donations, such as the eyes, which can succeed after the donor dies.
Some donations, such as one kidney, can come from living donors who continue to live after the donation.
but no donation of a singular organ, such as the heart, can succeed without extracting the organ while the “donor” is alive, thus killing him.
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Dear Anonymous,
Read the answers of Emile and Nadir. (Thanks, you two!:laugh2::laugh1:)