Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?  (Read 2824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
« on: May 03, 2018, 11:15:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • or are most of them marranos or crypto-Jєωs


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 01:03:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Historically, insincere conversions were a common problem.   To a large extent, however, these were in response to being forced or pressured to convert.  It would not be not surprising if a person given the choice of becoming a Catholic or leaving his home might pretend to convert lacking genuine belief in Christ.

    In our time, there is virtually no external pressure on Jєωs to become Catholic.  (It is even possible in the Novus Ordo for Jєωs to be discouraged from becoming Catholic.) So the main historical cause of marranos/ crypto-Jєωs no longer exists.  

    It seems likely, therefore, that most current conversions to Catholicism are sincere.  My personal experience of converting to Catholicism is that, although sincere, I had a poor formation due to being raised in a false religion.  Perhaps this is common.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #2 on: May 03, 2018, 02:27:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While sometimes suspicion is due, it's wrong to assume that all Jєωιѕн conversions are insincere. After all, the Apostles were all Jєωs. 

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 05:38:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While sometimes suspicion is due, it's wrong to assume that all Jєωιѕн conversions are insincere. After all, the Apostles were all Jєωs.
    So was the Blessed Virgin

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 10:36:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think you can still find it, say when a married couple converts, and say a teenage child goes along to Mass on Sunday but doesn’t really believe or care. Or someone “converts” because their sweetie pie wants to get married in a Church. 


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #5 on: May 05, 2018, 11:47:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • neither Christ, nor Mary nor 11  of the original disciples were Jєωs.. Good grief..has everyone drinking the koolaid..
    Luke 3:38.. lineage of them all, including Jesus Christ tracks back to Adam and Eve..they were/are all Adamic..by race..not Jєωιѕн hybrids..
    Polygenism? I'm getting Christian Identity vibes... Stormfront is ------> that way.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #6 on: May 05, 2018, 12:16:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Gospel of John

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240133.htm


    Quote
    How then did the Samaritans know not what they worshiped? Because they thought that God was local and partial; so at least they served Him, and so they sent to the Persians, and reported that the God of this place is angry with us 2 Kings 26, in this respect forming no higher opinion of Him than of their idols. Wherefore they continued to serve both Him and devils, joining things which ought not to be joined. The Jєωs, on the contrary, were free from this supposition, at least the greater part of them, and knew that He was God of the world. Therefore He says, You worship ye know not what; we know what we worship.

    Do not wonder that He numbers Himself among Jєωs, for He speaks to the woman's opinion of Him as though He were a Jєωιѕн Prophet, and therefore He puts, we worship. For that He is of the objects of worship is clear to every one, because to worship belongs to the creature, but to be worshiped to the Lord of the creature. But for a time He speaks as a Jєω; and the expression we in this place means we Jєωs. Having then exalted what was Jєωιѕн, He next makes Himself credible, and persuades the woman to give the greater heed to His words, by rendering His discourse above suspicion, and showing that He does not exalt what belongs to them by reason of relationship to those of His own tribe.

    For it is clear, that one who had made these declarations concerning the place on which the Jєωs most prided themselves, and thought that they were superior to all, and who had taken away their high claims, would not after this speak to get favor of any, but with truth and prophetic power. When therefore He had for a while removed her from such reasonings, saying, Woman, believe Me, and what follows, then He adds, for salvation is of the Jєωs. What He says is of this kind: neither, that blessings to the world came from them, (for to know God and condemn idols had its beginning from them, and with you the very act of worship, although ye do it not rightly, yet received its origin from them,) or else, He speaks of His own Coming. Or rather, one would not be wrong in calling both these things salvation which He said was of the Jєωs; which Paul implied when he said, Of whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all. Romans 9:5 Do you see how He commends the old Covenant, and shows that it is the root of blessings, and that He is throughout not opposed to the Law, since He makes the groundwork of all good things to come from the Jєωs?


    He who denies the Jєωιѕнness of Jєωιѕн Christ, or His virgin mother, is a heretic. Anonymous previously sounds like he savors the dual seedline theology of the KKK. He who reads Protestant writings, without the intention of doing so to refute them, is in danger of losing his soul.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #7 on: May 05, 2018, 12:52:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you subscribe to the doctrines of Wesley A. Swift, Thomas Robb, Richard Butler, etc.

    you are a heretic. 

    I don't know what you're doing on a Catholic forum, but you're not Catholic.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #8 on: May 05, 2018, 01:30:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think you can still find it, say when a married couple converts, and say a teenage child goes along to Mass on Sunday but doesn’t really believe or care. Or someone “converts” because their sweetie pie wants to get married in a Church.
    Good point.  I have the impression, though, that this is a problem among converts in general, rather than converts from Judaism specifically.

    In my experience in the Novus Ordo, poor instruction was more of an issue among converts than lack of sincerity.  In my RCIA program I was taught things that were outright wrong (eg: using contraception is up to one's conscience) and key information was left out (eg: how to go to Confession).  I joined the Church without a clue that some of the ideas that I had picked up when Jєωιѕн or during my time as a Protestant were wrong and needed to be renounced.  

    In more recent years, I have come across the traditional ceremony for converts and I was struck by the difference.  I feel cheated that I was not given an opportunity to make the traditional Act of Faith for converts:
    Quote
    I, N.N., .... years of age, born outside the Catholic Church, have held and believed errors contrary to her teaching. Now, enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you, Reverend Father ...., having before my eyes and touching with my hand the holy Gospels. And with firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles contained in the Apostles' Creed, that is: I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty, from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

    I firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and ordinances of the Church.

    I admit the Sacred Scriptures in the sense which has been held and is still held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and I shall never accept or interpret them in a sense contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

    I profess that the sacraments of the New Law are truly and precisely seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: baptism, confirmation, holy Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony. I profess that all confer grace, and that baptism, confirmation, and holy orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also accept and admit the ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforementioned sacraments.
    I accept and hold in each and every part all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, real, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is really, truly, and substantially present, and that there takes place in the Mass what the Church calls transubstantiation, which is the change of all the substance of bread into the body of Christ and of all substance of wine into His blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ whole and entire.

    I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful.

    Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.
    I firmly profess that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever a Virgin, as well as of all the saints should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences, and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the holy, Roman, Catholic, and apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ.

    Moreover, without hesitation I accept and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and by the general councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the Vatican General Council, and in special manner all that concerns the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, I now freely profess and I truly adhere to it. With the help of God, I promise and swear to maintain and profess this faith entirely, inviolately, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all who depend on me and over whom I shall have charge.
    So help me God and these holy Gospels.

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11659
    • Reputation: +6988/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #9 on: May 05, 2018, 06:58:35 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • In more recent years, I have come across the traditional ceremony for converts and I was struck by the difference.  I feel cheated that I was not given an opportunity to make the traditional Act of Faith for converts:
    Although it is impossible to be "re-baptised", Jayne, it is not too late to make that Confession of the Faith, before a priest or privately, before God. It has only to be written on your heart, no?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #10 on: May 05, 2018, 08:30:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Although it is impossible to be "re-baptised", Jayne, it is not too late to make that Confession of the Faith, before a priest or privately, before God. It has only to be written on your heart, no?
    I'm glad you mentioned that, in case anyone else here is in a similar situation.  It is great advice.   That is what I did when I discovered the traditional rite for receiving converts a few years ago. I did it with a priest privately.  Also I printed out the Act of Faith and put it up on the wall in my room.  


    Offline Croix de Fer

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3219
    • Reputation: +2525/-2210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #11 on: May 05, 2018, 10:16:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cantarella made the following quote & cited Pope Gregory XIII's Bull regarding the problem of false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Church, and it's very relevant to this topic:

    "It is historical fact that the Jєωs have been behind the worse revolutions against the Church of Christ. (Reformation, French Revolution, Bolshevik Revolution, Vatican II, etc.) If a convert Jєω takes an issue with these historical facts against Judaism and still may take offense when someone points out these facts, then it is a proof that as Ascend says, he is not really born to New Life as a Catholic, but still carries the mark of the Jєω with their innate nature to revolt against Christ. Wherever the Jєωs as a whole are allowed to gain power, only spiritual and social decay follows. That is why they have always been expelled and secluded from everywhere, until XX century when they have literally taken over the world and over the Catholic Church with Vatican II, and we are seeing the disastrous results of the global Jєωιѕн influence. Everything that is twisted in society today, we can thank the global spread of Judaism for."

    Quote
    Quote
    Over the centuries, the Church has never changed her firm, wise stance on the Jєωιѕн question (until Vatican II, apparently). On the one hand, she prevented the Jєωs from being mistreated and she allowed their religion to be practiced in private. On the other hand, however, faced with the impossibility of converting them, she rebuked them for the crime of Deicide, exhorted them to repent, and isolated them in order to prevent them from perverting Catholics.

    .........................

    In the Brief of May 27, 1581, Gregory XIII (1572-1585) warned the faithful and religious authorities against the false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Catholic Church. (37) In the Bull Antiqua ʝʊdɛօrum improbitas of June 1, 1581, the Pontiff established these conditions for when Jєωs must be submitted to the vigilance of the Inquisition:

    a. when they attack Catholic dogmas;
    b. when they invoke devils or offer sacrifices to them;
    c. when they teach Catholics to do the same;
    d. when they speak blasphemies against Our Lord and Our Lady;
    e. when they try to induce Catholics to abandon their Faith;
    f. when they forbid a Jєω or an infidel to convert;
    g. when they consciously favor heretics;
    h. when they disseminate heretical books;
    i. when, in disdain for Our Lord, they crucify a lamb – principally on Good-Friday – and then spit on it and spew it with insults.
     j. when they oblige Catholic wet-nurses to pour their milk into the toilettes and sewers after they have received the Eucharist. (38)

    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a028htJPII_VisitToѕуηαgσgυє1986.htm

    "As we see, the Jєωιѕн infiltration have always been a thread for the Church but never seemed so victorious and evident as with Vatican II Council"
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 07:08:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cantarella made the following quote & cited Pope Gregory XIII's Bull regarding the problem of false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Church, and it's very relevant to this topic:

    "It is historical fact that the Jєωs have been behind the worse revolutions against the Church of Christ. (Reformation..."

    Quote
    "As we see, the Jєωιѕн infiltration have always been a thread for the Church but never seemed so victorious and evident as with Vatican II Council"
    The Reformation? Martin Luther on the Jєωs: “Set fire to their ѕуηαgσgυєs or schools. Jєωιѕн houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jєωιѕн “prayer books and тαℓмυdic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough.
    Luther also urged that “safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jєωs,” and that “all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.”

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 11:28:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cantarella made the following quote & cited Pope Gregory XIII's Bull regarding the problem of false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Church...
    This is an inaccurate summary of the quotation from the Tradition in Action article http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a028htJPII_VisitToѕуηαgσgυє1986.htm cited:

    Quote
    In the Brief of May 27, 1581, Gregory XIII (1572-1585) warned the faithful and religious authorities against the false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Catholic Church. (37)

    In the Bull 
    Antiqua ʝʊdɛօrum improbitas of June 1, 1581, the Pontiff established these conditions for when Jєωs must be submitted to the vigilance of the Inquisition:
    a. when they attack Catholic dogmas;
    b. when they invoke devils or offer sacrifices to them;
    c. when they teach Catholics to do the same;
    d. when they speak blasphemies against Our Lord and Our Lady; 
    e. when they try to induce Catholics to abandon their Faith; 
    etc.

    The  papal Bull Antiqua ʝʊdɛօrum improbitas did not say anything about a problem with false conversions of Jєωs to inflitrate the Church, nor did the TIA article claim it did.  The article claims that a different docuмent, the Brief of May 27, 1981 "warned the faithful and religious authorities against the false conversions of Jєωs as a means to infiltrate the Catholic Church."

    The article gives a footnote (37) to the book which supposedly supports this claim: 
    35. Apud L. Pastor, Historia de los Papas, vol. 17, p. 306.
    36. Ibid., vol. 17, pp. 306-7.
    37. Ibid., vol. 19, p. 281.

    Looking at the English translation of Historia de los Papos, volume 19 (which clearly has different pagination) https://archive.org/stream/thehistoryofthep19pastuoft/thehistoryofthep19pastuoft_djvu.txt there is a section on problems with conversos starting on page 308:   
    In the time of Gregory XIII. the Inquisition was often en 
    gaged with relapses into Judaism ; J these renegades, who
    had accepted Christianity in Spain and Portugal, and had then
    secretly returned to their former religion, frequently took
    refuge from the power of the Inquisition in Spain and Portu
    gal, and overran the whole of the north and centre of Italy.
    Gregory XIII. addressed letters on the subject to the nuncio
    at Venice, 2 and to many of the Italian princes. He warned,
    for example, the republic of Genoa against receiving refugees
    of this kind, without finding out definitely who they were,
    whether they could produce certificates of good conduct, and
    where they intended to stay ; once they had been admitted
    they were not to be sent away, so that they might not take
    refuge among the unbelievers....

    There is a quote from the Brief of May 27, 1581 in this section which says:
    Accepimus multos a ludaica perfidia ad Christi fidem recenter 
    converses rursumque Christo repudiate ut canes ad vomitum
    suum ad ludaismum reverses quotidie ex multis regionibus
    praesertim vero ex Hispania et Lusitania in Italiam confluere,
    etc.

    Neither this quote from the Brief, nor anything else I can find in the text supports a claim that Gregory VIII warned people that false conversions were a means to infiltrate the Catholic Church.
    (English translation of Brief: We have received many recently from Jєωιѕн perfidy to the faith of Christ, who turning around again like a dog to his vomit, are returning to Judaism,
    daily coming together from the many regions, especially  from Spain and Portugal, to Italy.)

    Perhaps others could take a look through the linked material to see if I am missing something, but I do not see anything about converts infiltrating the Church.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 11:48:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Reformation? Martin Luther on the Jєωs: “Set fire to their ѕуηαgσgυєs or schools. Jєωιѕн houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jєωιѕн “prayer books and тαℓмυdic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough.
    Luther also urged that “safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jєωs,” and that “all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.”
    I am not sure what the claim about the Reformation could be based on, but one could make a strong case for influence from Jєωιѕн converts and Jєωs on Vatican II.