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Author Topic: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?  (Read 2827 times)

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Offline GottmitunsAlex

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Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2018, 09:59:40 PM »
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  • "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #31 on: May 08, 2018, 07:39:10 AM »
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  • Posting a barely legible screenshot of a papal bull is not conducive to understanding what it says or its historical significance.

    That image showed cuм Nimis Absurdum. A legible version of the Latin text is available here:
    http://www.ariberti.it/antisemitismo/cuм-nimis-absurdum.html

    It does not say anything that directly answers the question posed in this thread about the sincerity of conversions from Judaism. It is legislation concerning severe restrictions on Jєωs.  The Wikipedia article on it does mention a connection to the subject of conversions:  "The measures were aimed at bringing about Jєωιѕн conversions. "  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cuм_nimis_absurdum

    As I mentioned earlier in the thread, taking harsh measures against Jєωs was a two-edged sword.  On the one hand, it did promote conversions.  On the other hand, there was a greater likelihood of these conversions being insincere, merely for the purpose of avoiding the restrictions on Jєωs.

    In part due to this problem, throughout history popes have alternated between harshness and clemency toward Jєωs.  Some popes thought it better to have more conversions with the risk of insincerity, while others preferred fewer conversions but that were more likely to be sincere.

    Anonymous asked about the word perpetuam.  That has nothing to do with the subject of the bull.  It is part of the papal title: "Paul, Bishop of Rome, Servant of the Servants of God, of perpetual memory."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #32 on: May 08, 2018, 08:52:37 AM »
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  • Although I have thought about it for some time, I still cannot understand why GMA posted a screenshot of cuм nimis absurdum.  Presumably he thought it was obvious, but I have no clue what point he was making or why he thought it was relevant to this thread.  It was about Jєωs, not converts.

    Throughout the thread, various people have treated Church teachings about Jєωs as if they were relevant to our understanding of converts from Judaism.  This just isn't compatible with the fundamental Catholic principle that a person who has been baptized in Christ is no longer a Jєω.  Even Jєωιѕн converts who revert to Judaism are not considered Jєωs, but heretics.  This is why they came under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition, along with other forms of heresy.

    Treating a convert from Judaism as a Jєω is an implicit denial of the Church's theology of baptism.  It is actually a serious error.  Some people here need to be more careful of this.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #33 on: May 08, 2018, 09:02:47 AM »
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  • the natural affinity of the Jєωs draws them away from Christ and His Kingdom and draws them toward just the opposite--communism and the destruction of Christendom...
    http://newobserveronline.com/comrade-Jєω-vienna-Jєωιѕн-museum-highlights-Jєωιѕн-role-in-soviet-communism/
    they cant help it.. like Christ well warned us at John8:44
    If you are talking about Jєωs it is a reasonable point, but irrelevant to the thread. If you mean to apply this to converts (the topic under discussion), then you are denying the power of Baptism.  

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #34 on: May 08, 2018, 09:13:51 AM »
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  • It is about conversion of heart, hence only a handful (literally) might have really converted to the true Catholic Faith.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #35 on: May 08, 2018, 12:29:01 PM »
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  • it has everything to do with conversion.. if a man builds a house, the very first thing he does is inspect the tree for the nature of its content..why even bother trying to use something that is not up to the job..
    Consider  this passage from St. Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians:

    [16] Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh. And if we have known Christ according to the flesh; but now we know him so no longer. [17] If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 

    The Challoner commentary, which shows how the Church has traditionally understood these verses, says: 

    [16] "We know no man according to the flesh": That is, we consider not any man with regard to his nation, family, kindred, or other natural qualities or advantages; but only with relation to Christ, and according to the order of divine charity, in God, and for God. The apostle adds, that even with respect to Christ himself, he now no longer considers him according to the flesh, by taking a satisfaction in his being his countryman; his affection being now purified from all such earthly considerations.

    Do you see how this is opposed to your position?  You are, in effect, taking the flip side of the problematic view that talks about "Hebrew Catholics".  People who think this way often end up involved in the heresy of Judaizing in their efforts to create a special Jєωιѕн identity.  

    They treat the special identity as a good thing and you treat it as a bad thing, but both of you are wrong to be thinking there is a special identity in the first place.  
    This is explicitly stated in St. Paul's Epistle to the Galations:  

    [26] For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

    And the commentary explains:  
    [28] "Neither Jєω": That is, no distinction of Jєω, etc.

    You are taking a position opposed to Catholic teaching.  I suggest that you discuss this matter with a good priest who can explain it to you.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #36 on: May 08, 2018, 12:36:23 PM »
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  • there has been a handful of self-hating Jєωs down thru History, but how difficult is it for a leopard to change his spots..

    While I have encountered Jєωs and atheists who refer to Catholic converts from Judaism, as "self-hating Jєωs" I have never seen a Catholic say it before.  

    Assuming you are a Catholic, that was a very strange thing to write.  The best thing any person could do for himself is to accept God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ.  It is a choice of eternal bliss instead of eternal torment.  How could anyone who understands this (which any Catholic ought to) call this self-hate?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #37 on: May 08, 2018, 01:03:25 PM »
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  • being Catholic, I heed the words of my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ..He clearly warned us to be aware of the evil nature of the Jєωs and avoid falling for the endless Jєωιѕн lies they never stop repeating..My patron saint St. John Chrysostom wrote down no less than 8 homilies warning us all of the Jєωs and their evil nature which is contrary to our nature..U sound exactly like a protestant..they simply adore the Jєωs and refer to them as gods chosen race, etc...all in complete heresy of the Church and the warnings of a dozen Popes and Christ Himself..
    St. John Chrysostom's homilies rightly condemn Jєωs and Judaizers.  I say nothing to the contrary.  But these homilies do NOT say anything to suggest that converts from Judaism retain the nature of Jєωs.  Obviously St. John Chrysostom would not claim anything as clearly opposed to Scripture and Church teaching.

    Your position implicitly denies the efficacy of the Sacrament of Baptism.  You would have baptism only working on non-Jєωs while powerless to affect Jєωs.  This is clearly absurd.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #38 on: May 08, 2018, 03:08:56 PM »
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  • What is absurd is:
    when forced to agree with an Early Doctor of the Church, U have to agree,
    but then U challenge everything the Dear Dr. of the Church stated that U previously just agreed with..
    The bounds of the mystery of the Sacrament of Baptism is not available to U to define for the rest of us..
    I am not challenging anything said by St. John Chrysostom.  He never said that Jєωs remain Jєωs after baptism.  Your erroneous ideas do not come from him.

    It is true enough that I am not qualified to teach about the Sacrament of Baptism.  That is why I encouraged you to speak to a priest.  You have a serious misunderstanding of Catholic teaching and you should seek instruction.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #39 on: May 08, 2018, 04:18:35 PM »
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  • “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:70)
    Logically, all of the original 12 were Baptised, likely by Christ Himself..
    So you think that 11 out of 12 converts from Judaism are likely to remain faithful Catholics?  That's not too bad.
    This shows, however, that Baptism (of Jєωs or anyone else) does not guarantee that people remain faithful Christians.  There would be no heretics, schismatics or apostates, if baptism worked that way.  

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #40 on: May 08, 2018, 05:01:32 PM »
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  • Jayne, you waste your time arguing with this anonymous ignoramus. He is obviously willingly ignorant of Catholic teaching and the Catholic Faith. He is unable to distinguish the difference between Jєω and convert, between apostle and disciple, even making such ridiculous statements as: Logically, all of the original 12 were Baptised, likely by Christ Himself..
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #41 on: May 08, 2018, 05:19:33 PM »
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  • of course the only 'disciple' of Christ that was Jєωιѕн was judas..the rest were John, James,
    Mark, Luke, Matthew.. sound Jєωιѕн?? NO..
    Jєωs are typically 3 percent of any population.. for all 12 disciples of Christ to be 'Jєωιѕн converts' is
    laughable..
    From Matthew 10: 
     [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [3] James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, [4] Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. [6] But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    As you can see, Mark and Luke are not among the 12 Apostles.  You do not even know their names and yet you claim to know their religion. "James" "John" "Matthew" (aka Levi) come from Hebrew.  "Bartholomew" "Thomas" and "Thaddeus" are from Aramaic (another Jєωιѕн language). "Andrew" and "Philip"  come from Greek. (Many Jєωs of that time gave Greek names to their children, so this does not show that they were not Jєωιѕн.) "Simon" is possibly derived from Greek or Hebrew.  These names do not sound Jєωιѕн because English language Bibles typically use Anglicized versions of the original names.  

    What is laughable is to assert that only 3% of the population of the Roman province of Judea (where Our Lord and the Apostles lived) was Jєωιѕн.  The Latin word Judea basically means "Jєω land."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #42 on: May 08, 2018, 05:58:01 PM »
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  • Jayne, you waste your time arguing with this anonymous ignoramus. He is obviously willingly ignorant of Catholic teaching and the Catholic Faith. He is unable to distinguish the difference between Jєω and convert, between apostle and disciple, even making such ridiculous statements as: Logically, all of the original 12 were Baptised, likely by Christ Himself..
    Nadir, I wanted to reassure you that I did not intend to ignore your advice.  I had written my last post before I saw this comment.  

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #43 on: May 08, 2018, 09:46:27 PM »
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  • One2Many has been banned for his behavior in this thread.

    The Anonymous subforum is not to be used as a cloak for malice. It is for soliciting help and asking questions in a discrete manner, when the matter is embarrassing, etc.

    Anyone ABUSING this subforum (using it as a cloak for malice) will A) get banned and B) I'll completely rip the mask off your face: I'll completely "out" you, posting publicly whatever information I have on you.

    This particular troll's e-mail address is: watchman911@gmail.com
    IP: 174.236.153.151
    Hostname:151.sub-174-236-153.myvzw.com


    And just for the record, any GOOD PERSON on CathInfo has nothing to worry about. There's no grey area here. When you're abusing the subforum, both YOU and I both know it.

    I'm not going to do this for every little thing -- silliness is OK for example. Like if you're cautious to admit you like ____ and want to share it with the forum. That basically comes under the reasons I started this sub-forum.

    I'm talking about using anonymity as a cloak for vicious rumor starting, slander, attacking people, etc.

    And while we're on the topic, I should point out (what should be obvious by now): I know the member name of EVERY SINGLE POST in the Anonymous subforum. So if you wouldn't post it on the main CathInfo board because you're afraid you'd get banned for misbehavior, don't post it here either!

    Offline poche

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    Re: are Jєωιѕн conversions to the Faith genuine?
    « Reply #44 on: May 08, 2018, 10:34:09 PM »
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  • A marrano/converso.
    If you continue to use these bad words to describe people converts, then you will be violating the spirit of the Gospel when Jesus said, "Go out to all the world... "