Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Are home-aloners Catholic?  (Read 13195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Are home-aloners Catholic?
« on: September 03, 2022, 11:43:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why or why not?

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2022, 11:50:00 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!5
  • No, they're schismatics.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #2 on: September 03, 2022, 01:28:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • :cowboy:

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32908
    • Reputation: +29188/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2022, 01:37:59 PM »
  • Thanks!7
  • No Thanks!0
  • Firstly, in this thread "home aloner" should be read "dogmatic home aloner" which is someone who is home on Sunday for *dogmatic* reasons -- not accidental reasons like "there doesn't happen to be a Trad chapel in my area". That is NOT how "home aloner" is used in common parlance on CathInfo.

    To use the lifeboat analogy --

    The original ship (mainstream Church, with associated parish churches visible in every neighborhood) has hit an iceberg, and is sinking. Thousands, maybe 3/4 or more of the passengers, have already drowned (lost the Faith, lost their souls, etc.)

    Trads would say, "abandon ship! Into the lifeboats!" and survive until help comes -- only God can solve the Crisis.

    Home aloners would indeed jump ship, but refuse to get into any lifeboat, because it's not "legitimate" because they didn't pay the extra fee for "lifeboat service". I know there is no real analogy for it, but basically they think it's not legitimate to attend "illicit" chapels set up by priests who weren't given permission to say the Tridentine Mass. They think the whole Traditional Movement is not allowed or legitimate. So they stay aloof from the Conciliar Church AND the Traditional movement. So Home Aloners stubbornly stay in the ocean by themselves, clinging to a piece of driftwood at best. That is their prudential move.

    Where this analogy DOES work so well --

    You have 3 options.
    1. Stay in the Conciliar sinking ship (where so many have already died, and YOU are likely to die as well)
    2. Be stupid and abandon ship without any means to support your life at sea (read: lifeboat)
    3. Abandon ship, and make sure to enter one of the many lifeboats available, to preserve your life until help arrives.

    Which of the 3 options is the most prudent? I say it's #3. And that's why I'm a Traditional Catholic.


    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #4 on: September 03, 2022, 01:46:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, they're schismatics.
    They are, you ecuмenists. Per the reasons Matthew laid out, they refuse to commune with the rest of the faithful. They are, by definition, schismatic.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #5 on: September 03, 2022, 02:02:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dogmatic home-alonism is an easy way to despair and lose your faith. It's probably even happened before.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32908
    • Reputation: +29188/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #6 on: September 03, 2022, 02:06:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Per the reasons Matthew laid out, they refuse to commune with the rest of the faithful. They are, by definition, schismatic.

    I was going to touch on that point as well.

    It's like the question "Can any sin be forgiven in Confession?" Well... yes and no. 

    Strictly speaking, there is no sin that the Power of the Keys can't forgive by the power God gave His priests, to forgive sins in His name. NEVERTHELESS, there are certain sins, such as maliciously rejecting God's mercy, that are PRACTICALLY SPEAKING seldom walked-back or repented of -- by their very nature. I'm talking about "sins against the Holy Ghost" which are not unforgivable IN SE, but PRACTICALLY SPEAKING unforgivable, because of the very definition/nature of those sins.

    Likewise, Home Aloners start out with a very imprudent move, but then they don't raise their children in the practice of the Catholic Faith. How can that end well? How can most men live without the sacraments? As someone who has spent close to a half-century in the Traditional Movement (not just the Catholic Faith, but the Trad movement in particular), I don't know how my clan could have survived without it. My parents were married at a Trad ("lifeboat") chapel in 1975. Had 4 kids. Now I'm in my mid-40s with 9 children myself. All of that has happened DURING the Crisis in the Church, and that Crisis doesn't look to end next week, either!

    How could my family have just "hung on" with nothing, back in 1975, if my parents had foolishly decided to go that route? How would I have learned the Faith? How to pray the Rosary at Church? Seeing older people outside my family who also believe the Catholic Faith? What Mass and Sung Mass are? Going to regular confession all during my childhood and (importantly!) teen years. Would I be just fine today without that Catholic upbringing? I would have to say NO.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #7 on: September 03, 2022, 04:04:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They are, you ecuмenists. Per the reasons Matthew laid out, they refuse to commune with the rest of the faithful. They are, by definition, schismatic.
    What if a Catholic believes that the mass offered by the traditionalist priest in his area is illicit and decides not to attend?
    At what point did he commit the sin of schism?


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32908
    • Reputation: +29188/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #8 on: September 03, 2022, 04:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What if a Catholic believes that the mass offered by the traditionalist priest in his area is illicit and decides not to attend?
    At what point did he commit the sin of schism?

    I already said: there are plenty of areas without many options for Tridentine Mass. What if there's just one option, and it's unacceptable for some reason? You'd be literally HOME ALONE on Sunday -- but for ACCIDENTAL, not DOGMATIC or ESSENTIAL reasons. You understand the difference between ESSENCE and ACCIDENT?

    If I eat nothing but vegetables and fruits one day, because I'm about to go shopping tomorrow and I'm out of meat, fish, and dairy -- or because I'm driving and have no access to those things for a while -- it doesn't make me a vegan! I might have the ACCIDENTS of a vegan, but would lack the essence. For one thing, I didn't embrace veganism for any reason other than "I have no food to eat which violates the vegan diet".

    To answer your question "At what point does he commit the sin of schism?" --

    When he believes he's among the last 2-dozen Catholics on earth, and doesn't attend Masses from any Trad group for dogmatic reasons.
    YOU tell ME. Where is the Catholic Church to this potential schismatic? Up and gone, I guess. Completely invisible.

    At least Trads have a decent answer, like "the Conciliar Church sort of still is" or the Sedes and others might say, "The Catholic Church remains in the world of Tradition."
    But if you boycott BOTH OF THESE? You literally think the Church is a dozen or two laymen, and this for a couple decades without the world ending?

    Yeah, I'm thinking Schism AND Heresy.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #9 on: September 03, 2022, 04:49:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To answer your question "At what point does he commit the sin of schism?" --

    When he believes he's among the last 2-dozen Catholics on earth, and doesn't attend Masses from any Trad group for dogmatic reasons.
    YOU tell ME. Where is the Catholic Church to this potential schismatic? Up and gone, I guess. Completely invisible.

    At least Trads have a decent answer, like "the Conciliar Church sort of still is" or the Sedes and others might say, "The Catholic Church remains in the world of Tradition."
    But if you boycott BOTH OF THESE? You literally think the Church is a dozen or two laymen, and this for a couple decades without the world ending?

    Yeah, I'm thinking Schism AND Heresy.
    But one doesn't have to claim that none of the traditional chapel attendees are Catholic to avoid traditionalist chapels. One could refuse to attend masses by traditionalist priests because of some law and then believe the others are simply mistaken and attending in good faith.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46849
    • Reputation: +27721/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #10 on: September 03, 2022, 05:51:52 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • But one doesn't have to claim that none of the traditional chapel attendees are Catholic to avoid traditionalist chapels. One could refuse to attend masses by traditionalist priests because of some law and then believe the others are simply mistaken and attending in good faith.

    Good point.  One does not necessarily have to hold that they are not Catholic in order to find reasons to avoid going to Trad chapels.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #11 on: September 03, 2022, 05:58:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dogmatic home-alonism is an easy way to despair and lose your faith. It's probably even happened before.
    Indeed.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #12 on: September 03, 2022, 07:14:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes.  I feel bad for them, but yes, they are Catholic.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32908
    • Reputation: +29188/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #13 on: September 03, 2022, 07:15:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Good point.  One does not necessarily have to hold that they are not Catholic in order to find reasons to avoid going to Trad chapels.

    First of all, I need to add the word "all" to "Trad chapels". Because again, we're not talking about someone who lives in a Trad wasteland area with only 0-1 Trad options. I'm talking about people who reject the Traditional Movement AS SUCH because it's not legitimate, no jurisdiction, etc. As in, the solution to the Crisis in the Church is to Stay Home -- for 52 years and counting. THAT is what these "dogmatic home aloners" believe.

    What are these "reasons" which dispense one from communion with perfectly good Catholics, to say nothing of meeting one's Sunday obligation?
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46849
    • Reputation: +27721/-5146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are home-aloners Catholic?
    « Reply #14 on: September 03, 2022, 07:25:46 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • First of all, I need to add the word "all" to "Trad chapels". Because again, we're not talking about someone who lives in a Trad wasteland area with only 0-1 Trad options. I'm talking about people who reject the Traditional Movement AS SUCH because it's not legitimate, no jurisdiction, etc. As in, the solution to the Crisis in the Church is to Stay Home -- for 52 years and counting. THAT is what these "dogmatic home aloners" believe.

    What are these "reasons" which dispense one from communion with perfectly good Catholics, to say nothing of meeting one's Sunday obligation?

    Some of them hold, for instance, that the vast majority of Trads have invalid or at least doubtful Holy Orders.  That would not make them schismatic for avoiding Trad chapels, since having invalid or event positively doubtful Orders would prevent them, under normal circuмstances, from receiving Sacraments there.  So, for instance, I've seen that opinion alluded to by Gerry Matatics (one of the most famous Home Aloners), and then if you also believe the +Thuc orders are invalid, what options do you have left?  Which Trad groups do not derive either from +Lefebvre or +Thuc?  That doesn't mean they hold them to be non-Catholic.  Or, alternatively, you could hold that since they lack jurisdiction, attending their Masses would be illicit.  Again, that does not mean considering them to be non-Catholic ... and therefore being "schismatic".  Let's not tar-and-feather all Home Aloners as schismatics without understanding why they hold that position.