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Author Topic: Anti-homeschooling editorial  (Read 912 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Anti-homeschooling editorial
« on: May 12, 2013, 12:56:18 PM »
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  • These people cannot tolerate the traditional family.  It's very existence offends them.  Of course, families that try to teach their religion to their children are represented as turning out freaks.  Don't think they won't try to ban homeschooling eventually.  Just let immigration keep going as it has been - it will only be a matter of time.

    Quote from: The Guardian
    Several decades ago, political activists on the religious right began to put together an "ideology machine". Home schooling was a big part of the plan. The idea was to breed and "train up" an army of culture warriors. We now are faced with the consequences of their actions, some of which are quite disturbing.

    According to the Department of Education, the home schooling student population doubled in between 1999 and 2007, to 1.5 million students, and there is reason to think the growth has continued. Though families opt to home school for many different reasons, a large part of the growth has come from Christian fundamentalist sects. Children in that first wave are now old enough to talk about their experiences. In many cases, what they have to say is quite alarming.

    When he was growing up in California, Ryan Lee Stollar was a stellar home schooling student. His oratory skills at got him invited to home schooling conferences around the country, where he debated public policy and spread the word about the "virtues" of an authentically Christian home school education.

    Now 28, looking back on his childhood, it all seems like a delusion. As Stollar explains:

    "The Christian home school subculture isn't a children-first movement. It is, for all intents and purposes, an ideology-first movement. There is a massive, well-oiled machine of ideology that is churning out soldiers for the culture war. Home schooling is both the breeding ground – literally, when you consider the Quiverfull concept – and the training ground for this machinery. I say this as someone who was raised in that world."

    Too frequently, Stollar says, the consequences of putting ideology over children include anxiety, depression, distrust of authority, and issues around sɛҳuąƖity. This is evident from the testimonials that appear on Home schoolers Anonymous, the website that Stollar established, along with several partners.

    Stollar's own home schooling experience started off well. But over time, as his family became immersed in the world of Christian home schooling, his "education" became less straightforward and more ideological. "I particularly remember my science curriculum," he says. "We used It Couldn't Just Happen, which wasn't really a science textbook. It was really just an apologetics textbook which taught students cliché refutations of evolutionism."

    Many parents start off home schooling with the intention of inculcating their children in a mainstream form of Christianity. However, as many HA bloggers report, it is easy to get sucked into the vortex of fundamentalist home schooling because extremists have cornered the market – running the conventions, publishing the curricula, setting up the blogs.

    As HA blogger Julie Ann Smith, a Washington state mother of seven, says:

    "If you are the average Christian home schooler with no agenda, and you have the choice between attending a secular home schooling convention and a Christian one, chances are you'll choose the Christian convention. But they only allow certain speakers who follow their agenda. So you have no clue. What you don't realize is that they are being run by Christian Reconstructionists."

    Smith is referring to the Calvinist movement, founded by Rousas John Rushdoony, that advocates a Christian takeover of the political system in order to "purify" the nation and cleanse it of the sin of secularism. Rushdoony taught that public schools – "statist education," in his words – promote chaos, primitivism, and "a vast disintegration into the void". He advocated home schooling as a way to rear a generation that could carry out the mission of retaking the nation for Christ.

    Much of fundamentalist home schooling is driven by deeply sexist and patriarchal ideology. The Quiverfull movement teaches that women need to submit to their husbands and have as many babies as they possibly can. The effects of these ideas on children are devastating, as a glance at HA's blogs show.

    "The story of being home schooled was a story of being told to sit down and shut up. 'An ideal woman is quiet and submissive,' I was told time and time again," writes Phoebe. "The silence and submission I was pushed into was ultimately a place of loneliness, bitterness and almost crippling insecurity."

    The fundamentalist home schooling world also advocates an extraordinarily authoritarian view of the parental role. Corporal punishment is frequently encouraged. The effects are, again, often quite devastating. "People who experienced authoritarian parents tend to turn into adults with poor boundaries," writes one pseudonymous HA blogger. "It's an extremely unsatisfying and unsustainable way to live."

    In America, we often take for granted that parents have an absolute right to decide how their children will be educated, but this leads us to overlook the fact that children have rights, too, and that we as a modern society are obligated to make sure that they get an education. Families should be allowed to pursue sensible homeschooling options, but current arrangements have allowed some families to replace education with fundamentalist indoctrination.

    As the appearance of HA reminds us, the damage done by this kind of false education falls not just on our society as a whole, but on the children who are pumped through the ideology machine. They are the traumatized veterans of our culture wars. We should listen to their stories, and support them as they find their way forward.


    Änσnymσus

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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 01:00:21 PM »
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  • These people try to represent homeschooling religious families as being freaks in the secular pig-sty of today's US and UK.

    Quote
    The following is a collection of facts and statistics that prove that America is being absolutely consumed by fear, stress, anger and depression...

    -ѕυιcιdє has now actually surpassed car accidents as the number one cause of "injury death" in the United States.

    -More U.S. soldiers killed themselves than were killed in combat last year.

    -As I mentioned in another article, Americans will spend more than 280 billion dollars on prescription drugs during 2013.

    -Nearly one out of every four women in the United States are taking antidepressants.

    -The percentage of women taking antidepressants in the U.S. is higher than in any other country in the world.

    -In 2010, the average teen in the U.S. was taking 1.2 central nervous system drugs.  Those are the kinds of drugs which treat conditions such as ADHD and depression.

    -Children in the United States are three times more likely to be prescribed antidepressants as children in Europe are.

    -According to a recent article by David Kupelian, "one-third of the nation’s employees suffer chronic debilitating stress, and more than half of all 'millennials' (18 to 33 year olds) experience a level of stress that keeps them awake at night, including large numbers diagnosed with depression or anxiety disorder."

    -Tens of millions of Americans use alcohol and drugs to numb the pain that they are experiencing.  In the United States today, there are about 28 million Americans with a drinking problem and about 22 million Americans use illegal drugs.

    -More people have been diagnosed with mental disorders in America than anywhere else on earth.

    -There are also tens of millions of Americans that try to deal with anxiety and stress by eating.  Of all the major industrialized nations, America is the most obese.  Mexico is #2.

    -Back in 1962, only 13 percent of all Americans were obese.  Today, approximately 36 percent of all Americans are obese.

    -Many people try to escape from the pain of reality by getting lost in entertainment.  Incredibly, the United States is tied with the UK for the highest average number of hours spent watching television each week.

    -The United States has the highest divorce rate in the world by a good margin.

    -The United States has the highest percentage of one person households on the entire planet.

    -According to the Pew Research Center, only 51 percent of all American adults are currently married.  Back in 1960, 72 percent of all adults in the United States were married.

    -At this point, approximately one out of every three children in America lives in a home without a father.

    -For women under the age of 30 living in the United States today, more than half of all babies are being born out of wedlock.

    -The United States has the highest child abuse death rate in the developed world.

    -In the United States today, it is estimated that one out of every four girls is sɛҳuąƖly abused before they become adults.

    -The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world by a very wide margin.

    -The United States produces more pornography than any other nation in the world.

    -If you can believe it, there are 20 million new STD infections in the United States every single year.

    -The U.S. has the highest STD infection rate in the entire industrialized world.

    -It is estimated that about one out of every six Americans between the ages of 14 and 49 have genital herpes.

    -Sadly, one out of every four teen girls in the U.S. has at least one sɛҳuąƖly transmitted disease.

    -The United States leads the world in eating disorder deaths.

    -Nobody in the world gets more plastic surgery done than Americans do.

    -Americans spend more time sitting in traffic than anyone else in the world.

    -America has the highest incarceration rate and the largest total prison population in the entire world by a very wide margin.


    Änσnymσus

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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 11:24:10 PM »
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  • These people speak of this army of Christians the way conservatives talk about the armies of liberal atheists are being brought up.  

    Yet, it's the atheists that are given the credibility.  

    Fuck them.

    Offline Tiffany

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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #3 on: May 13, 2013, 08:18:32 AM »
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  • http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/hslda-and-child-abuse-hsldas-stonewalling-of-child-abuse-investigations/

    Very foolish



    This is the advice they are criticizing illustrated in a skit. (Warning the mom does try to give protestant faith to the social worker.)

    CAST

    Mr./Mrs. Innocent an unprepared parent

    Mr./Mrs. Orwell a social services agent

    Eager-to-Please a home-schooled child

    Mr./Mrs. Wise a prepared parent

     

    Scenario 1: How not to do it, featuring a parent who is not prepared when a social service agent arrives at the door.


    [ It is 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and a knock comes at the door. INNOCENT opens the door and finds an agent from Child Welfare Services on the doorstep.]

    ORWELL: We recently received a report that your children are being abused or neglected. I need to inspect your home and talk to each one of your children separately to verify or negate this information.

    ORWELL: If you don't allow me to come in, I'll have to get a police officer and a warrant, and things will become much more complicated. I know you don't want that. I'm sure we can resolve this matter today if you'll just cooperate.

    INNOCENT: Well....uh....I'm not really ready now, but I guess so, okay. If we can work this out....

    ORWELL: You just cooperate and everything will be just fine. First of all, what are the names of your children?

    NT: Well, we have twelve children!

    ORWELL: And what are their birth dates?

     

    [The scene shifts to a discussion with one of the twelve children.]

    ORWELL: So let's talk about Little Eager, What's Eager's birth date?

    INNOCENT: Eager was born in 1989, on April 2nd.

    ORWELL: Would you call him so I can speak with him?

    INNOCENT: Can I stay here with him?

    ORWELL: No, I'm sorry. I need you to go out of the room. It's very important that I interview each of your children individually and privately so they can be completely open and honest.

    INNOCENT: Well.....okay....

    [Unprepared parent leaves the room, and the social service agent begins to interview Eager-to-Please]

    ORWELL: Hello Little Eager! My name is Orwell, and I work for the government. I visit boys and girls all over the city to find out how they are doing and if they have any problems I can help them with. I'm happy to meet you today. How old are you, Eager?

    EAGER: I'm six years old.

    ORWELL: Eager, where do you go to school?

    EAGER: I don't.

    ORWELL: What do you mean, you "don't go to school?"

    EAGER: Well, I stay home here with my mom.

    ORWELL: Your parents don't let you go to the public school?

    EAGER: No.

    ORWELL: Don't they like public school?

    EAGER: No!

    ORWELL: Eager, do you have any friends that go to public school?

    EAGER: Yeah, some of my friends who live next door and down the street. They get on the big yellow bus in the morning and drive away.

    ORWELL: And they come home in the afternoon?

    EAGER: Yeah.

    ORWELL: Do you get to play with them in the afternoon?

    EAGER: Yes I do get to play with some of them.

    ORWELL: But you don't get to play with them during the day, do you?

    EAGER: No, it's just me and my brothers and sisters.

    ORWELL: Do you ever wish you could play with your friends while they're gone all day?

    EAGER: Yeah, I do. I get a little lonely. I miss them sometimes.

    ORWELL: So, your friends are all gone away to school and you miss them. You wish you could be with them and play with them.

    EAGER: Yeah, like Johnny next door. He tells me a lot of fun things about public school. I'd kinda like to go there some time.

    ORWELL: Eager, have your parents ever said why they don't like the public school?

    EAGER: They say it's bad cause I'll learn bad things there.

    ORWELL: Do your parents let you play with any of the neighborhood kids?

    EAGER: Well....uh...there are some kids down the street that I can't play with. One time I tried playing ball with them, but my parents came out and said that their parents don't believe the same as we do, so they didn't want me hanging around them.

    ORWELL: So, your parents won't let you play with these other children?

    EAGER: No. I get a spank if I play with them.

    ORWELL: What do you mean you'll "get a spank"?

    EAGER: Well, uh, I get a whupping.

    ORWELL: How do you parents "whup" you? Do they use their hands or a paddle or what?

    EAGER: They use a paddle.

    ORWELL: Like a big wooden paddle?

    EAGER: Uh, yeah...It's pretty big!

    ORWELL: And they hit you with this wooden board?

    EAGER: That's right. Right on my back end.

    ORWELL: Eager, when your parents hit you with this paddle on your bottom, do they make you take your pants down?

    EAGER: Oh, yeah.

    ORWELL: So they hit you with this wooden board on your bare bottom?

    EAGER: Yes, I cry a lot. It hurts.

    ORWELL: Now, Eager, when your pants are down like that, do they ever touch your bottom with their hands? Do they ever touch you at all?

    EAGER: Yeah, sometimes, if they can't find the paddle.

    ORWELL: Eager, I'm glad we've had this time to visit. I hope I'll see you again. I'd like to be your friend.

    [Social services agent sends Eager-to-Please out of the room, and the unprepared parent returns.]

    ORWELL: Mr./Mrs. Innocent, I think there's some abuse going on in this home. I have evidence of physical abuse, sɛҳuąƖ abuse....

    INNOCENT: What....?

    ORWELL: ....social deprivation, and educational neglect. I'm going to need to have your children stripped so I can see if they have any bruises on their anatomy. I'm also going to have to have your children meet with a Department of Social Services psychologist to determine if they are experiencing any emotional abuse from this social deprivation or educational neglect. Mr./Mrs. Innocent, I have serious concerns about your religious beliefs. And what about all this home-schooling stuff? Do you have any books?

    INNOCENT: We have books. We have some books up here...some over there....uh....and under the table.

    ORWELL: Let me see where you do this home school. Do you have desks?

    INNOCENT: We sometimes teach out children here, on the couch, and sometimes over here....

    INNOCENT: Yes.....and sometimes on the floor.

    ORWELL: You don't have any desks?

    INNOCENT: No, we don't have any desks for the children. We don't need them.

    ORWELL: The lighting in this room is terrible. You don't have a school room; you don't have desks. Do you have a blackboard?

    INNOCENT: No, we really don't need those?

    ORWELL: What about audio-visual aids?

    INNOCENT: Well...uh...we go on field trips. Does that count?

    ORWELL: Do you have any test scores for these children?

    INNOCENT: Well, we haven't really started testing yet. We have a philosophy...you know....that children should not be tested too young. We are going to wait awhile.

    ORWELL: So you have no test scores. Are you certified to teach?

    INNOCENT: No...but I have a high school diploma from the local public school here! That should be worth something!

    ORWELL: Now, Eager told me something that really concerned me. He said that you don't allow him to play with other children.

    INNOCENT: Yeah, that's true in a number of occasions. We want to protect our children from families who believe very much differently than us.

    ORWELL: Tell me about your religious beliefs.

    INNOCENT: Well, we believe the Bible is the Word of God, and we have to do what it says.

    ORWELL: All right, so what does the Bible say about child discipline?

    INNOCENT: Well, it says in Proverbs that....uh...."the rod is for the back of him who's void of understanding..."

    ORWELL: What do you mean by "rod"?

    INNOCENT: Well, we use a paddle.

    EAGER: Yeah, it's right over here.

    ORWELL: May I see it? [Social services agent takes paddle.] I think I'm going to keep this for awhile.

    INNOCENT: Wait a minute. I think I need to use that right now. Eager!!!

    ORWELL: When you use this paddle on your children, where do you strike them?

    INNOCENT: Well, we spank them only on their back end.

    ORWELL: Clothed or unclothed

    INNOCENT: Well, we pull their pants down...it's more effective that way...and sometimes they wiggle around a bit, you know. It's hard, but we hit them on the back end.

    ORWELL: Have you ever bruised a child?

    INNOCENT: Well....I mean...not recently.

    ORWELL: Mr./Mrs. Innocent, I'm afraid I'm going to have to write this up as a case of substantiated child abuse. I'll make arrangements for your children to meet with our psychologist. Mr./Mrs. Innocent, I'll keep in touch with you. Good day. [Exit]


    Scenario 2: In which the agent encounters a prepared parent, aware of his rights.


    [It is 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and a knock comes at the door. WISE opens the door and finds an agent from Child Welfare Services on the doorstep.]

    WISE: Can I help you?

    ORWELL: Yes, are you Mr./Mrs. Wise? I work with the local social services agency. There's been an allegation made that you've been abusing and neglecting your children....

    WISE: Wait a minute. Do you have a business card? We don't just talk to anybody. We want to know who you are, and that, in fact, you work there. Do you have a card, sir?

    ORWELL: Uh, yes, just a minute....but, I want you to understand that this is a very important matter. As you can see, I'm from the Department of Social Services.....

    WISE:  Hmmmm. [Reads name on card.] How long have you been working there?

    ORWELL: I ask the questions here. You've been turned in for abusing and neglecting your children.

    WISE: Well, what are the allegations specifically?

    ORWELL: I'm not in a position to share those with you until I have met with each of your children privately for questioning. After I've talked with them, then I'll tell you.

    WISE: Well, I appreciate your interest, and I too, want to get to the bottom of this. I assure you, nothing is going on. There's nothing that we're hiding here. However, I can't even proceed until I know of what I'm being accused.

    ORWELL: As I said, I am not going to tell you the allegations until I meet with your children. If you're not willing to cooperate, I'll have to get a police officer. If necessary, we'll obtain a search warrant or court order, and we'll come back and talk to each one of your children privately. It would be much easier though if you cooperated with us here and now, so that we could avoid the unpleasantness of bringing in the police. What's it going to be?

    WISE: Well, you obviously have to do what you need to do, and I'm not in a position to stop you. However, you'd be making a major mistake, and I'd hate to see you get in trouble over something like this. As I said I am more than happy to work this out. We'd be glad to meet with you. But I do need to talk to my attorney first. We could possibly set up a mutually convenient time when we could meet to resolve this. But right now, I can't let you into my home. I don't even know what the accusations are!

    ORWELL: Good day, then, I'll be back.

    WISE: I've got your card here, and I'll call you as soon as I have contacted my attorney.

    [After the social worker leaves, the prepared parent calls HSLDA and gets counsel for the next meeting with the social worker. The prepared parent is able to do this because he joined HSLDA as a member in advance! The HSLDA attorney will generally call the social worker on behalf of the member family. He will find out the allegations and try to resolve the situation. If he can't resolve it over telephone, he will set the parameters for a meeting. This meeting is never held in the home, but rather in a designated place away from the home. The HSLDA attorney prepares the parent on what to say at the meeting and recommends bringing a witness or a tape recorder.]

    [It is now another day, and the social worker meets with the prepared parent to follow up.]

    WISE: Well, it's good to see you again. I understand now that you can let us know what the allegations are.

    ORWELL: All right. We received a telephone call from a person who was "concerned because the children were all thin. This person thought that the removal of food was probably a form of child discipline and was under the impression that this discipline may have been a practice of your religion - some "born-again" ideology, or something. The caller cited that the parents give a lot of money to the church and spend little money on groceries, and the caller also mentioned that the mother home schools her children." [This comment is in quotation marks because it came from an actual case.] Are these allegations true?

    WISE: They are not true --except for the fact that we are homeschooling our children and we are born again. Do you know what born again means?

    ORWELL: Uh....no, but...

    WISE: Let me explain. You see, in John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus he must be "born-again" in order to enter the kingdom of God. Since the wages of sin is death, we all need a Savior. Do you know where you are going when you die?

    ORWELL: Look, are your children healthy?

    WISE: You bet!!

    ORWELL: Do they eat enough food?

    WISE: Yes. We believe children are a gift of the Lord, and as a result, we have to take care of them, giving them the best possible. Part of that is how we feed them - we make sure they have plenty of nutritious food to eat.

    ORWELL: Do you ever deprive them of food as part of your religion, or part of your born-again beliefs, or part of your child discipline, or any of that?

    WISE: No, we don't. We can, as our attorney has probably told you, offer you references from individuals in the community who would vouch for the good care we give our children.

    ORWELL: Now you realize that we are going to have to have your children meet with our physicians so that they can evaluate whether or not the children have been properly fed.

    WISE: I've talked to our attorney about that also, and we have already had our children go to see our personal family physician, and he is putting his report in writing for you. Our children have a clean bill of health.

    ORWELL: That report does not remove the need for me to personally interview your children.

    WISE: Well, I think we went over this before, but our position is that we cannot take that risk. Besides, we've already provided this other information so that you can really close this file because you're going to have references from individuals, the doctor's report, and our own assurance that everything is fine. The reason we don't want you to talk to our children, frankly, is because we don't trust the system. We're aware of statistics that show that 60% of children that are removed from home by the social welfare system shouldn't have been upon later review. We just can't take that risk because sometimes those children are put into foster homes where they are abused. So it has noting to do with hiding anything, it's just that we care so much for our children that we can't take the risk. We don't know you.

    ORWELL: Everyone else cooperates, Mr./Mrs. Wise. If you have nothing to hide, then why are you hiding so hard?

    WISE: As I said, we'd be more than happy to cooperate if you could guarantee that you would find this "unfounded." But since you can't, and we don't know how you're going to interpret this, and the studies show that many, many families' statements are misinterpreted, how can we take that risk? Would you take that risk with your children?

    ORWELL: [Hesitates in knowing how to respond.]

    WISE: Please understand, we appreciate your great interest in our family. We know you're just doing your job, and sometimes that can put a person between a rock and a hard place. But we've got certain rights that we talked to out attorney about. We have the right of privacy which comes under the Fourth Amendment which protects us from state officials coming into our home at will, and we're standing on that right. Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment?

    ORWELL: Uh...we did not learn about the Fourth Amendment in Social Workers School. However, I am familiar with the Second Amendment....do you have any guns in your house?

    WISE: That's really irrelevant. I'll take the Fifth on that one.

    ORWELL: Let's talk about your homeschooling. I have to see your curriculum and facilities. I need to verify that you have enough light for these children to read. For all I know, you're ruining their eyesight by reading to them on a couch or something.

    WISE: Well, I've talked to my attorney again about this, and we are legal. We're legally home schooling, and in this state, we're allowed to home school. We've followed the necessary requirements under the law. If you have a problem with this, you need to let the school district know because it's not really in your jurisdiction. Meanwhile, our attorney would be glad to send you a letter verifying the legality of home schooling.

    ORWELL: Just because you're legal doesn't mean you're not neglecting your children.

    WISE: If you have a problem with our educational program, you'll need to contact the local superintendent. We're on file. I can assure you that we're educating our children. It's part of our religious beliefs. We must teach our children to the best of our ability so that they can become productive citizens. Our philosophy is to provide them the best quality education that we possibly can.

    ORWELL: Look, I have specific charges against you: You're starving your children, you're giving all your money away, your neglecting their education, and you're not willing to cooperate with me.

    WISE: As I stated, we are going to provide you evidence so that you can find the allegations "unfounded." We're going to provide a statement from our doctor and various references. You have our word on it, and we're known in the community. Besides, we base our decisions in our family on the Scriptures, where we are clearly instructed that "if you harm one of these little ones, it's better a millstone be tied around your neck and be thrown in the deepest part of the ocean." That's a responsibility we take seriously in raising our little ones - that God would hold us accountable - in fact, we would be sinning before Him if we harmed them in any way in discipline, or withholding food as we've been accused of...we would never do those things.

    ORWELL: Mr./Mrs. Wise, look, I can tell that you're sincere. I don't know....I'm really concerned about this situation. I wish you would cooperate with us instead of making our jobs so difficult.

    WISE: Let me assure you. We care for our children, too, and we appreciate your care. And I believe that you will find this can all be resolved and you can put on file that it is "unfounded." In fact, we'd like something in writing, describing your finding. By tomorrow we should be able to get that statement from our doctor, so we just ask that you hold off any further decision until you can look at this. And if there's still a problem, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

    ORWELL: It's obvious that you're not willing to do anything more than you've done. So I'll look at your doctor's report...I just want to say, for the record, that this kind of attitude is what makes it so hard for us to protect children. While you may be very sincere, there are real kids out there who are getting hurt. Your way of dealing with this matter ties us up with lawyers and reports when we should be resolving serious crisis. Good day, Mr./Mrs. Wise.

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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 08:27:28 AM »
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  • I bet these "homeschoolers anonymous" had no friends growing up in state system to tell them about the abuse they experienced.
    ~Tiffany


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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 09:32:44 AM »
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  • You wouldn't have to worry about this happening if you just send your children to an SSPX school, which doesn't discrminate based on race, creed, color, ethnic origin, or sɛҳuąƖ preference.

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    Anti-homeschooling editorial
    « Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 10:53:55 AM »
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  • didn't catch the sarcasm at first.

    It's certainly true: I don't see any resolve to stand up for homeschooling parents against the state.  Anymore than there is resolve to stand up for the principles Archbishop Lefebvre outlined.