Dude, just shut up. The effeminacy is all yours as you allow some Croix dude to constantly live inside your mind. He really must have impacted you. Just about every run-in you have in the anonymous section, you think it's Croix. I'm sure Matthew can verify it's not Croix.

Hardly, just the first step on the process of flushing you out, Croix.



I stand by your being Croix until you come out with your identity.  That's only fair.

There is no reason to see me as "poor Jayne".  I enjoy, just for itself, the process of looking up passages in Catholic sources and thinking about what they mean and then organizing my thoughts by writing about them.

Well, that's fine if you're doing it for your own sake.  I get that.  It's just annoying that he gratuitously dismisses your various well-thought-out arguments.  I in turn gratuitously dismiss his gratuitous dismissals.

Hi there. I hope this doesn’t stir the pot or perhaps upset anyone who was hoping to see this topic die down and fade away. I just wanted to add a different perspective and share my own opinion. I usually just read through, as an unregistered member. Yesterday I decided to register so that I could search through more thoroughly and actually add my two cents.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the OP or other varying opinions here the facts are pretty simple- one can make an argument for or against a husband disciplining his wife physically or in other forms by utilizing magisterial references, scriptures or weak or vague writings of past Doctors of the Church (regarding this specific matter). Ultimately, like many things today, depending on which side of the pendulum you tend to hang onto, what people do in their respective marriages rests solely on THEIR decision as sacramentally united Husband and wife within the Church. This is done so prayerfully and carefully between husband and wife, and God.

As a woman, just slightly under the age of 30 and having been extremely traditional and orthodox in my beliefs for so long AND including my child rearing as a young girl, I agree that a husband reserves the right to discipline his wife a part from punishment. This could be, removing of privileges, reducing extra money, taking away things like social media, TV time if they have it, etc if a husband desires to begin utilizing physical punishment more specifically, spankings with hand or belt or paddle... he should discuss this with his wife, and if she agrees, that dynamic clearly laid out.

Years ago I would have never agreed or said it was okay. After marriage, I realized despite how traditional I was in mind, thought, action, dress and actual faith both interiorly and exteriorly, there were many things engrained in me (like all women of this age) that are deeply secular, worldly, and rooted in feministic ideologies that stem back to free masonry. The facts are simple- according to natural law, man and woman are NOT the same. We are NOT equal in our physical or emotional capacities and faculties. It’s not suggesting a man is BETTER than a woman. It is simply saying we are different as God designed us to be and this is BEAUTIFUL and not disparaging or degrading or humiliating. We as women, tend to be emotional creatures. Some more so than others, but emotional nonetheless. We see many things in our lives and experiences through the lens of emotions, feelings and matters of the heart. Men see things much more logically and from an actual logistical perspective. Because we are emotional, many women have a certain disposition about them. Some are quiet, passive and very exteriorly docile and meek, and often sulk, keep everything bottled in. These women are usually the kinds that cry a lot, or pout silently. Perhaps they even give the silent treatment or play games such as “nothing is wrong... I am fine” when on the inside they are riddled with a range of emotions. Other women (more like me)... we are much more aggressive, verbal, take our stand sort of women. We are generally soft and sweet, loving and incredibly kind and behave overall as we should as wives and women. But when angry or when we perceived to be provoked, we often argue, perhaps lash back verbally (even if softly or sarcastically) and we tend to express our emotions more verbally. This can lead to arguments, disagreements, perhaps even struggles for power and for being right. Some women are overall good in all areas and are balanced in their dispositions exteriorly and interiorly but have other defects- tardiness, weak prayer life, push over mothers, inconsistent, not good with the house or cooking, perhaps over spending, etc and etc.

My husband and I, agree and practice his physical disciplining of me. For me, this was necessary and important. In one way, perhaps you can think of it as my consenting and asking him to help me self mortify my own weakness which were so intense for me, the only thing that worked for me was this. I do not fear my husband in the sense that he would ever hurt me. He wouldn’t. My husband loves and adores me greatly. In fact, he literally treats me like his queen. I want for nothing, I stay home, I have all that I need and plenty extras that aren’t even necessary. He helps me when I need help, and he always always stands by me and protects me. BUT.... he also wants me to go to heaven. His JOB/ responsibility in his vocation as my husband is to ensure he exhausts every possible measure to assist in that endeavor along with my efforts towards personal holiness as well.

I desperately and eagerly wanted to be the best wife I could possibly be. For me, my greatest interior defect which manifested exteriorly into the home was my mouth. Arguing, talking back excessively beyond reason or explanations, even getting loud occasionally and shouting. My husband felt demeaned, emasculated and disrespected. This affected our day to day interactions, romance and emotional connections along with finally... spilling over into the marital bed where occasionally he didn’t even desire me and it wasn’t because of my physical appearance. I had mastered so many things... excellent mother, excellent at keeping the home, not over spending, maintaining the budget he gives me each month, homeschooling the children, superb cook, excellent at devotions and prayer life, daily mass attendance and regular adoration and confession, timely, organized and so on. It was this ONE area... which really if we peel it back like an onion stems from pride. It was perpetuated from a culture of female self identity, independence and feminist ideology which goes back to free masonry, which is precisely the plans and schemes of the devil.

For me... Satans greatest attack and success was the destruction of so many marriages and more importantly, convincing the world that women and men were somehow equal in all things and women deserved all roles and responsibilities that a man would have normally carried. For me.. after amounting to a great professional and educational level of success, being independent for so many years prior to marriage.. it was the greatest cross for me to carry in truly submitting to my husband as head and leader of our home. Because we did things correctly according to the Church and waited for marriage, there were so many wrinkles that surfaced after marriage in every day life. What we found was, we often argued about absolutely nothing. We never actually disagreed on any matter of substance or significance but would get into this incredibly volatile arguments which often resulted in shouting on both parts and continued frustration, resentment and more. Solution... my husband and I agreed to set more clear and concise rules and implement a Catholic way of domestic discipline. No I do not call him “sir” and no it is not sɛҳuąƖized or perverted like some evil erotica or some freakish dungeon perversion with chains and whips. It’s simple... my husband has made our schedule, set his rules and expectations, and when I deliberately fail or break said rules there’s a consequence. If it’s serious enough and repetitive, he might physically discipline me. Sounds like a child right? No. It’s not. This is a marriage... a partnership where the husband is head and the woman is helper or helpmate. I am subject to him in all things and should he err in his decisions or leadership over me, he would stand accountable for that if he failed to confess it. The primary offenses (really the only ones) he will spank me for, are related to safety and the wellbeing of our children, and if I should argue or shout at him, or fight with him the way I once did when he would make a decision and I didn’t agree. This was one area I actually asked him to discipline me the most for because I struggled with it so greatly and I found that, where I once saw myself as overall, having rid myself of all exterior and most interior defects (impediments to holiness), I realized after marriage how unholy I really was and never saw myself as. This was my own revelation and realization after countless encounters with Christ in adoration, prayer and serious silent contemplation regularly each day.  I now have begun being able to master them once and for all and am well on my way to having gained the freedom I always wanted, where these emotional outbursts and impulsive tenancies no longer “rule” me rather, I am in control and have discipline over them. It was with the HELP of my husband in this matter by his disciplining me, that I MYSELF was able to accomplish this. Ironically, 99% of this decision to practice this was mine and mine alone. In fact, it took over a month of misery in our lives before he finally conceded and saw it as a possible avenue that we could travel down to fix it. Prior to, we were on the brink of needing a marriage therapist and in our Priest’s office weekly, followed by my shame in finding myself in the confessional what felt like daily, for disrespecting my husband and fighting with him.

Now, our home is harmonious. Our marriage is flourishing now nine months into it, and we are finally balanced, living out our vocations as we should and helping each other pursue sainthood and holiness. There are no more fights, and no more nights of him feeling exhausted and beat down emotionally with an unruly and surly woman for a wife. He’s proud of me as his wife, and he is happy to be my husband as I am his wife.

Where this practice would fail, is with a husband who is neither balanced nor disciplined himself. In my case, my husband is about as disciplined, reasonable and balanced as they come. He is intelligent and strong, always makes sound decisions and always always takes the lead and guides our family, pushing us each and every day to be more and more holy, and closer and closer to the Church, and Christ. My husband would never hurt me, and he would never do something to injure me emotionally, physically, sɛҳuąƖly or spiritually. In fact, I’d argue his only struggle at times was his fear that he might hurt me in some way. For me personally, this physical sort of correction for this repetitive defect of mine and disposition towards these sins, was necessary and worked for me. I am certain perhaps, there are women who are incapable of tolerating this emotionally, spiritually or both. In that case, perhaps a husband could exercise discipline on other forms. Not every form of domestic discipline involves physical although, in many cases it does. These are not abusive in nature, degrading or disparaging. Although, if you search online I’m certain you will encounter a plethora of sources who utilize such means and they are not catholic at all. My husband has never degraded or swore at me. He does not disparage me or talk down to me ever. During these moments of discipline, he doesn’t even shout or raise his voice. In fact, he calmly explains and we usually talk afterwards and he reassures me of his undying love for me and his care and unwavering commitment to me as my husband. This discipline is truly just on the bottom, never on any other location of the body and does not create any broken skin or physical injury. It is not riddled or mixed with any sɛҳuąƖ desires or disordered perversions, and is never beyond what I am willing to receive or what I am capable of handling emotionally or physically.

In my opinion, if women could see how emotional they are and how much this secular feminist culture has destroyed our minds in some way (even some of the most trad cats out there)... we would see ourselves as needing the true loving care and loving discipline our husbands are entitled and really, required to give us. Again, this doesn’t always imply physical but it should. I have seen so many so called trad women, who despite their many strengths, had so many issues in their home and I hated to see what that did to their husbands in some way shape or form.

Once again.. this would not work for everyone. But honestly, for those it couldn’t nor wouldn’t ... I pose this argument.... women have from the fall of man, been corrupted and tempting to men to not only sin but created a number of issues in the world that they don’t even realize. I am proud to be a woman, and I love my femininity and motherhood. But, i also know that i am unable and incapable (sometimes unwilling) to take on any of the responsibilities my husband carries. I am here to help him... not rule him, not be equal to him in power and responsibility and certainly not to dictate to him. I am beneath him in the spiritual hierarchy, and this isn’t ugly... this is beautiful. The day I learned to love this and really embrace it, was the day I went from opponent and enemies with my husband to being his queen and the love of his life. My husband has authority over me. Any one here who argues that needs to do some serious serious reflection and prayer. For those that make it ugly perhaps you are poorly catechized or heavily influenced by your childhood or other cultural and worldly influences. Hint... if the world says something is bad, chances are.. it’s probably good and if it says something is good, it’s most certainly bad. If a husband is a proper catholic man as he should be, he will possess the self restraint and control and discipline necessary to be able to discipline his wife lovingly and within the appropriate measures and extent. If he’s not... then... this is an entirely separate issue. The world doesn’t want wives to be under their husbands in this holy, beautiful and Catholic way because then Satan would lose his battle of disrupting homes, killing reproduction rates, marriage sacraments for life, contraceptives and abortion and so on. He loves keeping women stomping their feet and demanding their husbands on how this or that will be or “you won’t tell me what to do” and you “most certainly won’t discipline me” (even when this is truly and wholly necessary and almost urgent).

So don’t rip me a part here... I can only tell you what worked for me, what saved my marriage and what helped us spiritually and within our sacrament. Everyone has their own opinion.

PS... we are a society family although my husband prefers the TLMs found in diocesan parishes when he can (and I loathe them). So no sede here for me or him.

Sorry, but the 'hand, belt, paddle' thing makes me feel sick.  As does the 'talking about it afterwards'.   With all respect, I feel disgusted at your descriptions, as if I've furtively read something perversely immoral.  The Good Angel will always create a din for those who practice their Faith with care and perseverance.  I'm hearing that din is very, very loud right now, after reading your post.   Also, interesting you mention 'tv time'.  Good Catholic families don't waste precious time watching the 'dirty images' box as Bishop Tissiere always calls it?  God bless you!    

Arguing, talking back excessively beyond reason or explanations, even getting loud occasionally and shouting. My husband felt demeaned, emasculated and disrespected. This affected our day to day interactions, romance and emotional connections along with finally... spilling over into the marital bed where occasionally he didn’t even desire me and it wasn’t because of my physical appearance.

Alas, this is all too common a problem.  Perhaps you could offer insight into why you behaved this way, since you seem overall to realize that it's wrong but engaged in the behavior anyway.  Conversely, I am at a loss to understand how a spanking would correct this behavior.  Typically physical punishments work for younger children because they have either no use of reason or very little of it and it's a psychological "negative reinforcement".  Once you have calmed down into a state of mind so as to accept the discipline, what exactly does it accomplish?  At that point you are already acknowledging that it was wrong.  Also, negative reinforcement is typically only effective when administered during the episode itself ... when you'd be unlikely to be calm enough to accept it.  Perhaps here the fruit of it for you came from the fact that it was a concrete act of submission on YOUR part and an attempt to atone for the behavior.  In that case, the benefit is from your submission and acknowledgement of fault rather from the physical discomfort/pain experienced.  I do also suspect that there's at least a subtle undercurrent of eroticism involved in such a practice even if it isn't overt or particularly obvious.  Nevertheless, I'm glad it worked for you.  Now, it doesn't really address the point of contention in this thread, since this is taking place with your consent.  It's essentially more of your husband's participation in your own self-mortification, which entails an act of submission on your part, a practice of the contrary virtue to this particular fault rather than a corporal punishment in the strict sense.  You are making the case that it worked for you, but I doubt it would work in situations where it was administered without and against the wife's consent.  In most cases, it would typically exacerbate the resentment toward the husband.

I also detect a significant amount of pride in your post, and it's that very pride which caused you to be argumentative with your husband.  You think very highly of yourself and did not hesitate to praise yourself to the moon, claiming that you only had one fault but were "superb" and amazing in every other way, referring to your extreme piety and "countless hours" of prayer..  Be careful that it isn't from pride that you are trying to root out this fault, for your next fall could be greater than your last.  God sometimes allows the proud to fall badly in order to teach humility.  I would be too ashamed to praise myself to the degree that you did, knowing that for every virtue I possessed I have a thousand faults.  No saint ever considered herself to be a saint, but the greatest of sinners, and you present yourself as perfect in every other way except for a particular behavior.

In other words, the root cause of your behavior was actually pride and lack of humility.  But that pride and lack of humility is quite evident in your posts.  So while you may have corrected the behavior, you may not have corrected the underlying cause.  And sometimes being proud can be much worse than having a variety of faults while being humble about them (recall Our Lord's parable regarding the Pharisee and the publican).

I seriously doubt that you are perfect in every other way except the behavior of arguing with your husband, as the underlying cause of pride probably manifests itself in many other ways as well.  No, the devil is very clever and can lead even the humble astray ... by tempting them to take even the most subtle pride in their humility.  That's how he plants the seeds.