Author Topic: A valid Mass (Read 1828 times)

Änσnymσus · « **on:** August 26, 2016, 02:23:39 PM »

* interrupted between the Consecration and the Our Father to ad-lib something
* no altar servers, just some random laywomen in jeans who gave the species to the priest
* white wine for the Precious Blood
* added a Protestant collect (the "Almighty God, from whom no secrets are hid..." from the Anglicans) to the Mass

I'm scared that I attended an invalid or illicit Mass. It's one that happened to be 5 minutes from my house.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2016, 02:44:47 PM »

Validity isn't the issue here. Clearly, the mass, if that's what it was, is displeasing to Our Lord. It would be better if it were invalid. That way Our Lord wasn't present to be stomped and spat upon.

What should you do? That depends. Did you go with knowledge or positive doubt?
Were you there because of a social or professional decorum such as a co-worker's "confirmation?" Did you leave once you realized it was bad? Or did you go deliberately? Out of idle curiosity? Did you take "communion?" Actively participate after knowing it was bad?

IMO, I'm no moral theologian, but if you knew it was wrong, went out of unnecessary curiosity, actively participated after knowledge, or took communion, make as perfect an Act of Contrition as you're able, and get to Confession ASAP. Call a priest. Don't wait for the scheduled time unless it's today.

If you found yourself in the situation without intention and left at once, still make an Act of Contrition, and get to Confession at the next regular opportunity. (For a sin to be mortal, you must have knowledge the act is seriously evil.)

Either way, make some sort of reparation to Our Lord in case it was valid and also pray for those present, that the Holy Ghost open their eyes.

Stubborn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2016, 02:47:52 PM »

You should read this book, The Great Sacrilege (PDF File). It's not a very long book but the best one I know of on the subject.

TKGS · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26, 2016, 03:19:29 PM »

I agree with Stubborn :shocked:; read The Great Sacrilege.

Obviously, what you attended was the Novus Ordo. First of all, when the priest starts ad libbing the "Eucharistic Prayers", one must seriously question the intention of the priest to do as the Church does. When a priest uses an Anglican prayer in the service, then it would seem that any doubt about the priest's intention is put to rest--he did NOT have the intention to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. The service you attended was a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. It was not a valid Mass.

And this doesn't even address the, at best, doubtful validity of all Novus Ordo services.

Matto · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2016, 05:56:29 PM »

I don't know if Novus Ordo Masses are valid or not. Some trads like Father Pfeiffer believe it is valid. Others like the Sedevacantists believe it is not valid. Some believe it was invalid when it said "for all" but now that the translation says "for many" it is valid. I have no idea which side is right even though I have seen arguments from all points of view. I do believe, however that it is not pleasing to God. I do not know if it is a mortal sin to attend or not, but I do not go myself even if it is a holy day of obligation and the Novus Ordo is the only Mass available to me. I believe God is more pleased with me staying home and praying the Rosary than going to the Novus Ordo.

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2016, 06:34:04 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

I agree with Stubborn :shocked:; read The Great Sacrilege.

Obviously, what you attended was the Novus Ordo. First of all, when the priest starts ad libbing the "Eucharistic Prayers", one must seriously question the intention of the priest to do as the Church does. When a priest uses an Anglican prayer in the service, then it would seem that any doubt about the priest's intention is put to rest--he did NOT have the intention to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. The service you attended was a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. It was not a valid Mass.

And this doesn't even address the, at best, doubtful validity of all Novus Ordo services.

Well said.

We're not just talking about the "validity of the Novus Ordo Mass" in the abstract. In this case, the priest does show his intention to offer some kind of protestant service; he's not "doing what the Church does". Having the intention to offer Mass (or at least "do what the Church does") is part of what is required for validity of the Mass.

1. Valid minister
2. Valid matter
3. Valid form/intention

By using the Church's liturgy, it can normally be assumed that the priest wishes to "do what the Church does" in offering Mass.

But when they start getting artistic, or "proactively" or "above average" ecuмenical about it, you must have serious doubts.

If the priest intends to bring humanity together, foster world peace, foster peace with protestants or some other intention like that he ceases to offer a Mass. It's a social gathering, peace rally, or some other kind of activism.

A peace rally can be a good thing, but it's not a Mass.

P.S. I suggest you become a full Traditional Catholic and leave the Novus Ordo forever. It's dangerous for your soul, and especially the souls of your children. Once they reach adulthood, boys have five times as high a risk of apostasy as girls. The Novus Ordo is fundamentally emotional, sentimental, and feminine. A man has to have a strong "feminine side", and/or be ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ if the Novus Ordo doesn't repel him on some level. Small boys only go out of ignorance, habit and/or obedience to their parents.

poche · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2016, 12:11:14 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

I agree with Stubborn :shocked:; read The Great Sacrilege.

Obviously, what you attended was the Novus Ordo. First of all, when the priest starts ad libbing the "Eucharistic Prayers", one must seriously question the intention of the priest to do as the Church does. When a priest uses an Anglican prayer in the service, then it would seem that any doubt about the priest's intention is put to rest--he did NOT have the intention to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. The service you attended was a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. It was not a valid Mass.

And this doesn't even address the, at best, doubtful validity of all Novus Ordo services.

The priest is not permitted to ad lib the Eucharistic prayers at the Novus Ordo mass.

3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2016, 07:07:36 PM »

Well, there was a guy who fervently clutched his rosary the whole time and received kneeling on the tongue... maybe he too is in on it and a traditionalist in the making?

OHCA · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2016, 10:22:52 PM »

Quote from: Guest

I'm scared that I attended an invalid or illicit Mass.

No need whatsoever to be "scared." You have the perfect get-out-hell card:

Quote from: Guest

It's one that happened to be 5 minutes from my house.

TKGS · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:46:15 AM »

Quote from: OHCA

Quote from: Guest
I'm scared that I attended an invalid or illicit Mass.

No need whatsoever to be "scared." You have the perfect get-out-hell card:

Quote from: Guest
It's one that happened to be 5 minutes from my house.

Are you sure that's a get out of hell card? Or is it a slide into hell card?

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2016, 06:54:31 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: TKGS
I agree with Stubborn :shocked:; read The Great Sacrilege.

Obviously, what you attended was the Novus Ordo. First of all, when the priest starts ad libbing the "Eucharistic Prayers", one must seriously question the intention of the priest to do as the Church does. When a priest uses an Anglican prayer in the service, then it would seem that any doubt about the priest's intention is put to rest--he did NOT have the intention to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass. The service you attended was a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper. It was not a valid Mass.

And this doesn't even address the, at best, doubtful validity of all Novus Ordo services.

Well said.

We're not just talking about the "validity of the Novus Ordo Mass" in the abstract. In this case, the priest does show his intention to offer some kind of protestant service; he's not "doing what the Church does". Having the intention to offer Mass (or at least "do what the Church does") is part of what is required for validity of the Mass.

1. Valid minister
2. Valid matter
3. Valid form/intention

By using the Church's liturgy, it can normally be assumed that the priest wishes to "do what the Church does" in offering Mass.

But when they start getting artistic, or "proactively" or "above average" ecuмenical about it, you must have serious doubts.

If the priest intends to bring humanity together, foster world peace, foster peace with protestants or some other intention like that he ceases to offer a Mass. It's a social gathering, peace rally, or some other kind of activism.

Wouldn't it make a difference if the priest did these things due to poor training rather than an intentional altering of the Mass?

Perhaps there are some budding Traditionalists 5 minutes from this person's house that just need a knowledgeable influence. Why would it be sinful to investigate the situation until you know for sure?

TKGS · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2016, 11:40:13 AM »

Quote from: Guest

Wouldn't it make a difference if the priest did these things due to poor training rather than an intentional altering of the Mass?

Perhaps there are some budding Traditionalists 5 minutes from this person's house that just need a knowledgeable influence. Why would it be sinful to investigate the situation until you know for sure?

In his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Archbishop Lefebvre discussed this very point. I don't have the direct quote available to me, but he made it clear that a priest cannot unknowingly have the proper intention. If his training and education is so poor that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do or intend, he cannot have the proper intention.

In other words, ignorance does not make something valid that is objectively invalid.

It would be like trusting a medical doctor who was trained at "Joe's Medical School and Transmission Shop" when he tells you that your gall bladder has to be removed when you tell him you have a stomach ache or assuming the abortionist down the street is a really nice guy and doesn't really know the gravity of his actions because so many people tell him that "choice" is a fundamental human right.

I don't think anyone said it would be a sin to investigate the situation, just that it would be a sin to actively participate in his non-Catholic worship service.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 29, 2016, 02:29:16 PM »

Quote

white wine for the Precious Blood

White wine is permitted

MaterDominici · « **Reply #13 on:** August 29, 2016, 03:17:34 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Guest
Wouldn't it make a difference if the priest did these things due to poor training rather than an intentional altering of the Mass?

Perhaps there are some budding Traditionalists 5 minutes from this person's house that just need a knowledgeable influence. Why would it be sinful to investigate the situation until you know for sure?

In his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Archbishop Lefebvre discussed this very point. I don't have the direct quote available to me, but he made it clear that a priest cannot unknowingly have the proper intention. If his training and education is so poor that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do or intend, he cannot have the proper intention.

I don't think that answers the question.

In your example, the priest doesn't have the intention of the Church and can't "accidentally" do the right thing, but in the question, the priest does intend to do as the Church desires, but makes a mistake or two... perhaps is even unaware that he made a mistake at all.

How severe would a mistake have to be to alter the validity of the Mass? The wine would count, except that white wine isn't a problem to begin with. The wrong words at consecration would, too, but that didn't happen either.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #14 on:** August 29, 2016, 04:39:50 PM »

Quote from: Guest

Quote
white wine for the Precious Blood

White wine is permitted

Was gonna say the same thing.

Author Topic: A valid Mass (Read 1828 times)

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