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Author Topic: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family  (Read 28343 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
« Reply #135 on: December 11, 2019, 07:26:59 PM »
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  • Definitely touching a sore spot.  But the truth is the truth.  It’s a father’s job to provide for his family, no one else’s.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #136 on: December 11, 2019, 07:46:07 PM »
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  • Definitely touching a sore spot.  But the truth is the truth.  It’s a father’s job to provide for his family, no one else’s.
    Here's my sore spot. You're saying the people like you and I who have a gaggle of children and no serious need for assistance can take cash each year to the tune of thousands of dollars merely because our children exist, but someone like the OP who might need some day-to-day assistance should "man up" and earn it himself.
    .
    My opinion -- that both he and I are free to use any government program that can be done both legally and morally -- is more consistent.


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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #137 on: December 11, 2019, 07:47:39 PM »
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  • So, what we have from "anonymous" is that as long as you're capable of caring for your family, it's OK to take welfare as an "added bonus".
    Also, if you cannot take care of your family, it's OK to take welfare because that's what it's there for.

    I fail to see who exactly doesn't fall into one of these two categories.
    The truth has not changed, regardless of the mental gymnastics one chooses to use in order to rationalize accepting government aid...it is a father’s job to provide for his family, PERIOD!!!
    It is not the governments responsibility to provide for your family.  When one chooses to depend on others to support their family they are acting reckless and irresponsibly.
    Child tax credit is provided with no strings attached....you have children you are entitled to refund.  It is cut and dry. The recipient is not committing any fraud, not pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes.
    Welfare is provided with the “string” that it is a TEMPORARY program to help those until they can get on their feet.  Those who continue on the program knowing full well that they have no intention of using it temporarily, but rather as a permanent source of income, are committing a fraud.  They are pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes by pretending they are only looking for temporary assistance when in fact they plan to “milk it” for as long as they can.
    They may be able to fool social services but they can’t fool Our Lord.

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #138 on: December 11, 2019, 08:04:26 PM »
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  • Give me an example where it would be morally wrong yet not illegal.

    Govt offers Veterans disability benefits for certain injuries.  You can be categorized as 100% disabled and entitled to full pay for the rest of your life for PTSD.  While PTSD can be VERY debilitating for a very small percentage of suffers, most can still maintain a normal full time job.

    So, for the govt to say that because you do in fact suffer from PTSD, you are now 100% disabled, when you know that you are not permanently disabled and perfectly capable of holding a full time job, you are morally obliged to say “No, that is not correct.  I DO suffer from PTSD but it is not so debilitating that I can’t work”.

    It would not be illegal to accept the disability pay by government standards but morally it would be dishonest and fraudulent to accept them under the pretense that you are 100% disabled and not able to hold a full time job. 

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #139 on: December 11, 2019, 08:05:13 PM »
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  • Welfare is provided with the “string” that it is a TEMPORARY program to help those until they can get on their feet.  Those who continue on the program knowing full well that they have no intention of using it temporarily, but rather as a permanent source of income, are committing a fraud.  They are pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes by pretending they are only looking for temporary assistance when in fact they plan to “milk it” for as long as they can.
    They may be able to fool social services but they can’t fool Our Lord.
    Except that you're making up parameters that don't exist. If the government intends for a program to be limited or temporary, they have all the means they need to make it so. They can require all sorts of hoops to make sure that people are not committing any sort of fraud against the program. The only real fraud that happens is done so illegally. No one here is advocating anything be done illegally.
    .
    You expect people to abide by the terms you feel should exist, not the ones that actually exist. I know someone that I think should NOT be using welfare because I personally think the government is allowing them to be lazy. But, they aren't doing anything fraudulent because *I* don't get to decide who or what the program is intended to provide. The government decides and as long as they're following the rules, it's no different than me taking tax credit payouts for having kids.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #140 on: December 11, 2019, 08:13:08 PM »
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  • Listen here, smarty pants... many of us have lived hard lives in order to make ends meet. Under such circuмstances, we tend to learn a bit about resourefulness. So, let's say that if one does lose this particular benefit with a "stroke of the pen," he's more likely to craft a way to continue to survive, even though it might result in extreme discomforts...

    However, those which think they have had the tiger by the tail are in for a very gruesome surprise. They'll find out that doctorates and degrees will be rendered useless. Without practical tradeskills, (yes, those jobs filled by those loathsome blue-collar workers) they'll find themselves absolutely helpless when the "stroke of the pen," by their hidden masters render the value of their dollar to nothing, you'll be lacking the grit necessary to even support yourself, moreless your entire family.

    I  speak with experience here... I went from riches to rags, almost literally overnight, I had a successful construction business and I went out of business in the crash of 2007-08. I witnessed many families thrown into the streets, with all their degrees and such, but I was able to get by without any schooling of higher learning, just with practical everyday skills and grit, and I didn't have to forfeit one bit of real property! That, my friend, is planning!

    Learn who your masters are and quit playing this stupid foolish game that you think is just being responsible... you are about to be burnt! Learn, and teach your children, how to be a truely productive citizen to society and not just a big wage earner (wage slave.)
    The “Master” is YOU!  Not the government, not the educators, not the ivory towers.
    You just agreed with the point I’ve been saying all along!  Way to go SI!!!  THANK YOU!
    It is a mans job to take care of his family...by hook or by crook!!!  NOT THE GOVERNMENTS!!!
    Wether you swing a hammer, write a prescription, plow a field...etc...etc...
    Just like your experience during the recession of 2008...we, as men must adapt, overcome, and improvise!!!!  We can never depend on others, especially the government, to support our families!!!

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #141 on: December 11, 2019, 08:24:51 PM »
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  • Except that you're making up parameters that don't exist. If the government intends for a program to be limited or temporary, they have all the means they need to make it so. They can require all sorts of hoops to make sure that people are not committing any sort of fraud against the program. The only real fraud that happens is done so illegally. No one here is advocating anything be done illegally.
    .
    You expect people to abide by the terms you feel should exist, not the ones that actually exist. I know someone that I think should NOT be using welfare because I personally think the government is allowing them to be lazy. But, they aren't doing anything fraudulent because *I* don't get to decide who or what the program is intended to provide. The government decides and as long as they're following the rules, it's no different than me taking tax credit payouts for having kids.
    No.  The term DOES EXIST...that is, and I promise I will no longer be commenting on this thread because it has become redundant...it is a father’s job to take care of his family, not the governments.  To knowingly and willingly continue to bring children into the world that you can not provide the basic necessities of life for and then expect others to do it for you is morally wrong. Ask your priest on Sunday.  I’m sure he would not encourage such folks to stay on such a path.
    I think I’ve already explained the difference in the intent when accepting the child tax credit vs welfare.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #142 on: December 11, 2019, 09:20:41 PM »
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  •  it has become redundant.
    Hey! Something we agree on!   :clown:


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #143 on: December 11, 2019, 09:55:16 PM »
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  • The idea that negative income tax is not welfare does not seem to be an idea supported by those who discuss public policy. I grabbed some random welfare charts off of Google and they generally list the EITC / CTC as welfare programs. The refundable CTC also increased in 2017 which is after several of these graphics were done.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #144 on: December 11, 2019, 10:00:01 PM »
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  • Child tax credit is provided with no strings attached....you have children you are entitled to refund. CASH ASSISTANCE
    Fixed this one for you. : )  It's not a refund. You didn't pay them anything to begin with.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #145 on: December 12, 2019, 04:52:00 AM »
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  • Fixed this one for you. : )  It's not a refund. You didn't pay them anything to begin with.
    No. Not all, but many people DO pay them to begin with.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #146 on: December 12, 2019, 05:03:26 AM »
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  • The idea that negative income tax is not welfare does not seem to be an idea supported by those who discuss public policy. I grabbed some random welfare charts off of Google and they generally list the EITC / CTC as welfare programs. The refundable CTC also increased in 2017 which is after several of these graphics were done.
    No one ever said it wasn’t income.  Obviously it’s income but it’s income gained at the expense of others.  
    Like I said, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something.  Just because you can let the government support your family doesn’t mean you should.  
    Again, ask Father on Sunday if it’s okay and morally acceptable / responsible to continue to increase the size of your family when you know full well that you can’t provide for them and expect others to provide for them for you.  

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #147 on: December 12, 2019, 07:27:51 AM »
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  • This argument will go nowhere because it is trying to "make a  right' decision within a corrupted  system. The  government takes so much of our money to fund the oligarchs and support war and moral depravity around the world that most of us don't have the personal cash flow ( that should be ours to give)to support works of charity outside of our basic Church" tithe" or allottment- Of course, it's by design. ( count me in on the paranoid part)
    So ,since we are within the evil system, we have to decide how to engage it if at all. I think pulling ourselves "up by our bootstraps" may be a proper mindset, but not realistic in the current circuмstances for most people. Yet- we are supposed to tread the narrow road between acceptability and sin as we 'limit children" due to the sickness of society and the economy.  Taking any government supplementation may not be a pleasant way ,but it might be  a necessary way to go, at least temporarily) since our money is funnelled through these programs. The economy does not favor christian male employment, and or success in the system, especially with single income families.  The the only way to possibly break free is to have your own business or become an independent contractor of some sort, and there is big risk in that, especially with a large family. The Amish have it right in the economic sense. They opt out of the system and take care of each other- we don't.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #148 on: December 12, 2019, 07:32:54 AM »
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  • Oh sorry, that was my post above

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Welfare Only Way to Support Large Family
    « Reply #149 on: December 12, 2019, 08:18:58 AM »
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  • This argument will go nowhere because it is trying to "make a  right' decision within a corrupted  system. The  government takes so much of our money to fund the oligarchs and support war and moral depravity around the world that most of us don't have the personal cash flow ( that should be ours to give)to support works of charity outside of our basic Church" tithe" or allottment- Of course, it's by design. ( count me in on the paranoid part)
    So ,since we are within the evil system, we have to decide how to engage it if at all. I think pulling ourselves "up by our bootstraps" may be a proper mindset, but not realistic in the current circuмstances for most people. Yet- we are supposed to tread the narrow road between acceptability and sin as we 'limit children" due to the sickness of society and the economy.  Taking any government supplementation may not be a pleasant way ,but it might be  a necessary way to go, at least temporarily) since our money is funnelled through these programs. The economy does not favor christian male employment, and or success in the system, especially with single income families.  The the only way to possibly break free is to have your own business or become an independent contractor of some sort, and there is big risk in that, especially with a large family. The Amish have it right in the economic sense. They opt out of the system and take care of each other- we don't.
    GOVERNMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY.
    As MD pointed out 40% of wage earners pay no taxes and some that do get more back than they put in via the Child Tax Credit.  
    This is about individual responsibility, a parents responsibility to provide for the needs of their family.
    There is nothing to argue.  It is a mans responsibility to provide for his family, no one else’s, not even the governments.