Alexandria
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Due to desperation and lack of funds for gasoline, I often go to the local "Blessed Sacrament Chapel". I'm not sure whether He is there or not, but in case He is, I go. This morning I was thinking.....
Would it be possible for Our Lord to preserve the Church in spite of heretical popes and hierarchy? Not that that would mean that everyone should go there, but for the sake of those who do not delve into the things that we do here, and have chosen to stick their heads in the sand rather than face facts.
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| Posted Jun 22, 2010, 5:47 pm |
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Cristian
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| Caminus said: | | Quote: | | One thing is to have the capacity of ruling and other is to be able to exercise it. |
That's right, if the nature of a thing is nullified, then it cannot by definition exercise its function. That's why subjection to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary to possess jurisdiction, because it is derived immedately from him. That's why the eastern schismatics does not possess succession formally, but only materially because they have valid orders. |
I agree, just have in mind we are talking about ordinary jursidiction and not the supplied one.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Whereas Vat II says this power comes through the sacrament of order. This is completely false. It is possible to have jurisdiction without the sacrament of order as in the case of a layman elected to the Papacy and viceversa, having the order without the jurisdiction as it is the case of the titular Bishops. |
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Well, this is completely false.
There were Popes who were not Bishops at the time of the election such as Celestine V, and ALL theologians and canonists agree that a layman may be elected to the Papacy and that inmediatly after the acceptance he`d be Pope.
Besides Pius XII clearly taught this:
"Even if a layman were elected pope, he could accept the election only if he were fit for ordination and willing to be ordained. But the power to teach and govern, as well as the divine gift of infallibility, would be granted to him from the very moment of his acceptance, even before his ordination
A layman as a layman cannot be elected to any office, he must first be consecrated as a bishop. And just because it is attached to episcopal consecration, it doesn't follow that it cannot be restricted in the latter example." (Address of His Holiness Pope Pius XII to the Second World Congress of the Lay Apostolate October 5, 1957)
Cristian Jacobo
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"Il n`y a qu`une tristesse, c`est de n`etre pas des Saints"
Leon Bloy
"Lacrimarum donum signum est praedestinationis"
Leon Bloy
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| Posted Jun 22, 2010, 6:40 pm |
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Caminus
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According to canon law, a layman must be consecrated as bishop if such were the case. At any rate, the example you adduce to prove the point fails because the man who would be elected, is elected to a unique office from whence flows all jurisdiction. The case doesn't hold when we consider bishops who must be consecrated and the power of jurisdiction that they receive which can only be received in "communion" with the Pope. The citation from LG, while formulated less clear, implies Pius XII's doctrine.
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| Posted Jun 22, 2010, 11:25 pm |
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