Vladimir
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
| 1914 Catholic Encylopedia said: | | The notion of predestination comprises two essential elements: God's infallible foreknowledge (pręscientia), and His immutable decree (decretum) of eternal happiness. The theologian who, following in the footsteps of the Pelagians, would limit the Divine activity to the eternal foreknowledge and exclude the Divine will, would at once fall into Deism, which asserts that God, having created all things, leaves man and the universe to their fate and refrains from all active interference. Though the purely natural gifts of God, as descent from pious parents, good education, and the providential guidance of man's external career, may also be called effects of predestination, still, strictly speaking, the term implies only those blessings which lie in the supernatural sphere, as sanctifying grace, all actual graces, and among them in particular those which carry with them final perseverance and a happy death. Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons. |
Is this a contradiction of Cantate Domino?
| 1914 Catholic Encylopedia said: | | When one hears the rigorists, one is tempted to repeat Dieringer's bitter remark: "Can it be that the Church actually exists in order to people hell?" The truth is that neither the one nor the other can be proved from Scripture or Tradition (cf. Heinrich-Gutberlet, "Dogmat. Theologie", Mainz, 1897, VIII, 363 sq.). But supplementing these two sources by arguments drawn from reason we may safely defend as probable the opinion that the majority of Christians, especially of Catholics, will be saved. If we add to this relative number the overwhelming majority of non-Christians (Jews, Mahommedans, heathens), then Gener* ("Theol. dogmat. scholast.", Rome, 1767, II, 242 sq.) is probably right when he assumes the salvation of half of the human race, lest "it should be said to the shame and offence of the Divine majesty and clemency that the [future] Kingdom of Satan is larger than the Kingdom of Christ" (cf. W. Schneider, "Das andere Leben", 9th ed., Paderborn, 1908, 476 sq.). |
Is this true as well?
I've been perusing this site:
http://romancatholicism.org/
and have come to question of if God's salvific will is universal, why are the majority of people damned? If God wills that man be saved what is preventing this will to be carried out? (Free will?)
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<<Nous disons sans cesse que le monde n'est rien, et nous ne vivons que pour le monde.>> ~ Massillon
切問而近思仁在其中矣
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| Posted Sep 7, 2010, 10:05 pm |
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innocenza
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FWIW, Vladimir --
When I first chanced on that site, I was quite impressed by it. However, I was warned by two very intelligent and, I believe, well intentioned, traditionalists, to steer clear of it. It is the work, they advised, of someone hostile to Catholicism who wants to lead unsuspecting faithful by increments to abandon the true religion.
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| Posted Sep 7, 2010, 10:34 pm |
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Telesphorus
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| innocenza said: | FWIW, Vladimir --
When I first chanced on that site, I was quite impressed by it. However, I was warned by two very intelligent and, I believe, well intentioned, traditionalists, to steer clear of it. It is the work, they advised, of someone hostile to Catholicism who wants to lead unsuspecting faithful by increments to abandon the true religion. |
Yes, romancatholicism.org is closely associated with "Pope Augustine" et al.
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Rome a perdu la foi, mes chers amis. Rome est dans l'apostasie.
- Archbi Lefebvre
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| Posted Sep 7, 2010, 11:03 pm |
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Matto
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1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."
Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.
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| Posted Sep 7, 2010, 11:06 pm |
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Telesphorus
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| Vladimir said: | | and have come to question of if God's salvific will is universal, why are the majority of people damned? If God wills that man be saved what is preventing this will to be carried out? (Free will?) |
I don't know, but the Catholic Encyclopedia is not to be trusted on this issue.
I know you're asking a deeper question, but it's a question that's difficult to answer, that's why there's such a strong tendency to make such remarks that eventually lead to the sort of universalist talk of men like John Paul II.
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Rome a perdu la foi, mes chers amis. Rome est dans l'apostasie.
- Archbi Lefebvre
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| Posted Sep 7, 2010, 11:07 pm |
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Vladimir
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Innocenza, Telesphorus
Thank you for the warning. I had already gathered from the site that it was not a "Catholic" site, and the information that I take from it ought to be examined closely. I'm uninterested in the majority of the information there, I'm merely looking into the Jansenist controversy (as part of my growing interest in Pascal) and that really is the best site for that particular area of history.
Telesphorus,
Thank you for your answer. I began to have my suspicions about the authority of the Catholic Encylopedia when I read the critique of so-called "rigorism" (in regards to the number of the saved) and the inclusion of non-Catholic religions in salvation; I will have to ask a priest about this when I have the chance.
Matto,
There have been numerous discussions about Cantate Domino and salvation issues on this site that are worth perusing.
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<<Nous disons sans cesse que le monde n'est rien, et nous ne vivons que pour le monde.>> ~ Massillon
切問而近思仁在其中矣
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| Posted Sep 8, 2010, 12:02 am |
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twiceborn
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| Matto said: | 1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."
Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church. |
I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.
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"A holy man pure in heart will not step aside from the truth for the sake
of pleasing men or to avoid the annoyances which beset this life."
- St. Augustine
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| Posted Sep 8, 2010, 2:19 pm |
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DecemRationis
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Matto said:
1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."
Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church. |
| Quote: | twiceborn said:
I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE. |
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I agree that it is nonsense. I am loth to use that word, "heretical" - though I'm not saying it's not. I do not think it is accurate, or speaks the truth of the faith.
I just want to point out that there is a lot implicated in coming to the conclusion that the CE is "wrong." Such as . . . am I wrong? I don't think so, but we must tread with some caution here, and due humility. Having said that . . . so far I agree with all of you on this.
The other reflection I want to point out is that, if we are right - it gives one something to think about in the battle against "modernism" and the "spirit of Vatican II." That "spirit" was around for quite some time before the council. Not sure what to make of that, but it's something to think about - it is part of the matrix or the context in which the consideration of these things must occur.
DR
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| Quote: | Haydock Commentary on Romans 3:20 et seq.
Now, at the coming of Christ, the justice of God, that is, the justice by which he made others just, and justified them, cannot be had without faith in Christ, and by the grace of our Redeemer Jesus Christ, whom God hath proposed to all, both Gentiles and Jews, as a sacrifice of propitiation for the sins of all mankind, by faith in his blood; that is, by believing in him, who shed his blood and died for us on the cross.
Annotation of the 1582 Rheims New Testament on Hebrews 11:6
6. He that cometh. ] Faith is the foundation and ground of all other virtues and worship of God, without which no man can please God. Therefore if one be a Jew, a heathen, or an heretic, that is to say, he be without the Catholic faith, all his works shall profit him no whit to salvation.
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| Posted Sep 8, 2010, 4:48 pm |
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Belloc
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| twiceborn said: | | Matto said: | 1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
"The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans."
Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church. |
I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE. |
since I was baptized, then, I am one of the predestined few......whew, been struggling a long time with that stateo f grace thing, good to know, dont have to worry about that now....since Augustine is the lone authority and all on that...
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Got nothing to say that likely is not offensive to someone.....
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| Posted Sep 8, 2010, 8:35 pm |
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