008
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Well, let me finish this thread with this:
I have somewhat played the devil's advocate since coming here---for the sake of clarifying positions. My own position is that Paul VI may well be declared an antipope one day for lack of due diligence, for not blocking the collapse of the Church, and for leaving heresies which developed subsequent to V2 to circulate unchecked.
But the Church is a visible, hierarchical society which Vatican I reaffirmed will exist perpetually as constituted by Our Lord (Pope + bishops +faithful); and the saints and doctors of the Church never taught us to expect serial imposter popes (they mostly taught the great apostasy as of the people and nations)...
while popes and councils, independent of each other, may defect (very rarely), when acting together in Council it is impossible per the promise of Jesus Himself, a priori. Pius XII and previous Popes guaranteed that Roncalli and Montini were Catholic enough and the whole Catholic people (bishops and faithful) ratified this.
It is impossible that the eucharistic and other ordinary means of grace be annihilated in 99.9 % the whole Church---and it is grossly inconsistent and cult-like for people like Fr. cekada to beg eccelsia supplet for himself and not allow it for the whole Catholic people as in any interregnum, even IF (a big IF) we have not had Popes since 1958.
Having said all that, I do believe Vatican II made havoc of the Faith and requires urgent corrections. The Holy Spirit prevents formal heresy when the Pope and duly consecrated bishops act together, but He does not guarantee against coming too close to deviations, nor guarantee that what is enacted is wise or even good.
Finis for this thread...
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| Posted Dec 31, 2009, 4:38 pm |
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SJB
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| 008 said: | | It is impossible that the eucharistic and other ordinary means of grace be annihilated in 99.9 % the whole Church---and it is grossly inconsistent and cult-like for people like Fr. cekada to beg eccelsia supplet for himself and not allow it for the whole Catholic people as in any interregnum, even IF (a big IF) we have not had Popes since 1958. |
I don't see the connection between the new rites and eccelsia supplet. It is not "cult-like" to question the new rites. SSPX questions them by AVOIDING them. They question the papacy of Benedict XVI by AVOIDING his authority.
If an invalid rite is used for a baptism, the Church does not supply the sacrament, as far as I know. This is why the proper form and matter are so important.
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It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil for thus we should speedily become unreal; but we must grow to something higher, and something truer, than a quickness in detecting evil. - Fr. Faber
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| Posted Dec 31, 2009, 4:57 pm |
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008
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| Quote: | | It is not "cult-like" to question the new rites. |
Right. But that's not what is said. Cekada goes a lot farther than simply "questioning"...
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If an invalid rite is used for a baptism, the Church does not supply the sacrament, as far as I know |
No. because it can generally be corrected without much difficulty. A better analogy might be the Catholic teaching of a true baptism of desire....
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| Posted Jan 1, 2010, 5:35 pm |
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