Author Topic: Question for Bosco about salvation (Read 2683 times)

Matto · « **on:** February 26, 2017, 08:09:14 PM »

I have a question for you Bosco. In which religions can a man be saved? Please give a thorough answer so that I can understand your beliefs better.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2017, 10:45:36 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I have a question for you Bosco. In which religions can a man be saved? Please give a thorough answer so that I can understand your beliefs better.

Pope Pius IX (19th century):

Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."

Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

Matto · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2017, 09:32:42 AM »

Yes, Bosco you did not answer the question at all. I wanted to know in which religions you think people can be saved so I could understand your beliefs better. I know you believe in BOD but I wanted to know more about your belief in BOD and who you think can get it.

Matto · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2017, 10:02:02 AM »

I have seen all sorts of quotes from the Church, from saints, doctors, fathers and Popes which support all sides of the BOD debate so I do not want to see the same quotes over and over again. I want to know what you believe on this matter in your own words, I don't want you to post another quote. I want to know in which religions you believe men can be saved.

Miseremini · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2017, 10:09:28 AM »

In all the discussions/quotes of BOD where does St. Dismis fit?
He was certainly guilty of deliberate sin, he was a criminal.
He was not baptised with water, yet Our Lord proclaimed he would be with Him in Paradise that day, the only person I know canonized by Our Lord.
I guess that means any religion or none if you don't know the truth.
I'll take Our Lord's word for it every time.

Arvinger · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2017, 10:12:34 AM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

Like pretty much every Cushingite Bosco does not quote the passage which comes immediately after this one. Here is the quote in context:

Quote from: Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]

Pope Pius IX speaks about invincibly ignorant people being led to the Catholic faith by divine light and grace precisely to remind us that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2017, 10:52:52 AM »

Quote from: Miseremini

In all the discussions/quotes of BOD where does St. Dismis fit?
He was certainly guilty of deliberate sin, he was a criminal.
He was not baptised with water, yet Our Lord proclaimed he would be with Him in Paradise that day, the only person I know canonized by Our Lord.
I guess that means any religion or none if you don't know the truth.
I'll take Our Lord's word for it every time.

You mean St. Dismas?

St. Dismas died in the Old Dispensation, before Our Lord had made Sacramental Baptism a requirement.

You are right to take Our Lord's word for things ... but where you trip up is when applying your personal interpretation to His words (you know, like Protestants do).

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2017, 11:54:19 AM »

Quote from: An even Seven

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Matto
I have a question for you Bosco. In which religions can a man be saved? Please give a thorough answer so that I can understand your beliefs better.

Pope Pius IX (19th century):

Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."

Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

In other words Matto, he believes they can be saved in any religion so long as they are ignorant of the Catholic Church. Completely contradictory of Dogma.

Yet another public condemnation of another Pope by Even Seven - saying that the Pope is teaching completely contradictory to Dogma. What Catholic would dare do such a thing, and in public no less??? Only a man that has lost his faith. I think it's time to hide your posts - they don't deserve any attention.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:08:17 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Yes, Bosco you did not answer the question at all. I wanted to know in which religions you think people can be saved so I could understand your beliefs better. I know you believe in BOD but I wanted to know more about your belief in BOD and who you think can get it.

Who are you trying to kid here? Your question to me was, "In which religions can a man be saved?". Pope Pius IX says only Catholics can be saved, but that God will not damn those in invincible ignorance. His statements are very explicit and as a Catholic I believe what he says.

Matto · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:20:49 PM »

Those in ignorance have religions like Buddhism or Hinduism or Judaism, or Islam or some form of paganism. In which of these religions can they be saved in their ignorance? Can the ignorant be saved in any religion? Or only monotheistic religions? Or what? I want you to tell me what can ignorant people believe and be saved by BOD. They have to believe in something.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:29:18 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: Matto
Yes, Bosco you did not answer the question at all. I wanted to know in which religions you think people can be saved so I could understand your beliefs better. I know you believe in BOD but I wanted to know more about your belief in BOD and who you think can get it.

Who are you trying to kid here? Your question to me was, "In which religions can a man be saved?". Pope Pius IX says only Catholics can be saved, but that God will not damn those in invincible ignorance. His statements are very explicit and as a Catholic I believe what he says.

He won't damn them because of invincible ignorance, but they are damned for original sin and all their other mortal sins.

Why don't you read the entire encyclical?

Or do you not believe in original sin?

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:31:23 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Those in ignorance have religions like Buddhism or Hinduism or Judaism, or Islam or some form of paganism. In which of these religions can they be saved in their ignorance? Can the ignorant be saved in any religion? Or only monotheistic religions? Or what? I want you to tell me what can ignorant people believe and be saved by BOD. They have to believe in something.

As Pope Pius IX states, those invincibly ignorant and who have perfect contrition for their sins are not held accountable for unknowingly being in a false sect and are therefore not considered to be part of such. They are Catholic in the eyes of God and are saved through the Catholic Church. No one is saved except through the Catholic Church.

Matto · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:34:47 PM »

So can an invincibly ignorant believe in any religion then and be saved? Or only in some religions?

tdrev123 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:43:39 PM »

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”

End of Debate. Period. Its over. Word for word refutes any claim that non-catholics can ever attain eternal life.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2017, 12:56:08 PM »

St. Alphonsus Liguori, Sermons (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”

Fr. Michael Muller, C.SS.R., The Catholic Dogma, pp. 217-218, 1888: “Inculpable or invincible ignorance has never been and will never be a means of salvation. To be saved, it is necessary to be justified, or to be in the state of grace. In order to obtain sanctifying grace, it is necessary to have the proper dispositions for justification; that is, true divine faith in at least the necessary truths of salvation, confident hope in the divine Savior, sincere sorrow for sin, together with the firm purpose of doing all that God has commanded, etc. Now, these supernatural acts of faith, hope, charity, contrition, etc., which prepare the soul for receiving sanctifying grace, can never be supplied by invincible ignorance; and if invincible ignorance cannot supply the preparation for receiving sanctifying grace, much less can it bestow sanctifying grace itself. ‘Invincible ignorance,’ says St. Thomas, ‘is a punishment for sin.’ (De, Infid. Q. x., art. 1).

Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian
“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.”

Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905:
“And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”

Fr. De Smet, S.J., Jan. 26, 1838: “New priests are to be added to the Potawatomi Mission, and my Superior, Father Verhaegen gives me hope that I will be sent. How happy I would be could I spend myself for the salvation of so many souls, who are lost because they have never known truth!”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. 3, Chap. 3, 1870, on Faith: “But, since ‘without faith it is impossible to please God’ [Heb. 11:6] and to attain to the fellowship of His sons, hence, no one is justified without it…”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

End of debate. Period. Over. All non Catholics, whether they know the Gospel or not, are damned. If they were of Good Will God would have sent them a missionary or an angel (this has been docuмented dozens of times (even in the Bible (The ethiopian eunuch))).

Anyone who reads these, and still says a non-catholic can be saved, is in heresy.