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Author Topic: Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?  (Read 960 times)

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Offline happenby

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Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
« on: January 07, 2017, 01:10:10 PM »
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  • This may have been discussed elsewhere on this site already, but I came across this online only recently so I'm posting it.  It has a lot to say about the necessity of baptism, possibly to the point of the Church revisiting the common man's interpretation of bod.


    March 16, 2016 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- On March 16, speaking publicly on a rare occasion, Pope Benedict XVI gave an interview (English translation) to Avvenire, the daily newspaper of the Italian Bishops' Conference, in which he spoke of a “two-sided deep crisis” the Church is facing in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. The report has already hit Germany courtesy of Vaticanist Guiseppe Nardi, of the German Catholic news website Katholisches.info.

    Pope Benedict reminds us of the formerly indispensable Catholic conviction of the possibility of the loss of eternal salvation, or that people go to hell:

    The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized person is lost forever. After the [Second Vatican] Council, this conviction was definitely abandoned. The result was a two-sided, deep crisis. Without this attentiveness to the salvation, the Faith loses its foundation.

    He also speaks of a “profound evolution of Dogma” with respect to the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. This purported change of dogma has led, in the pope's eyes, to a loss of the missionary zeal in the Church – “any motivation for a future missionary commitment was removed.”

    Pope Benedict asks the piercing question that arose after this palpable change of attitude of the Church: “Why should you try to convince the people to accept the Christian faith when they can be saved even without it?”

    As to the other consequences of this new attitude in the Church, Catholics themselves, in Benedict's eyes, are less attached to their Faith: If there are those who can save their souls with other means, “why should the Christian be bound to the necessity of the Christian Faith and its morality?” asked the pope. And he concludes: “But if Faith and Salvation are not any more interdependent, even Faith becomes less motivating.”

    Pope Benedict also refutes both the idea of the “anonymous Christian” as developed by Karl Rahner, as well as the indifferentist idea that all religions are equally valuable and helpful to attain eternal life.

    “Even less acceptable is the solution proposed by the pluralistic theories of religion, for which all religions, each in its own way, would be ways of salvation and, in this sense, must be considered equivalent  in their effects,” he said. In this context, he also touches upon the exploratory  ideas of the now-deceased Jesuit Cardinal, Henri de Lubac, about Christ's putatively “vicarious substitutions” which have to be now again “further reflected upon.”

    With regard to man's relation to technology and to love, Pope Benedict reminds us of the importance of human affection, saying that man still yearns in his heart “that the Good Samaritan come to his aid.”

    He continues: “In the harshness of the world of technology – in which feelings do not count anymore – the hope for a saving love grows, a love which would be given freely and generously.”

    Benedict also reminds his audience that: “The Church is not self-made, it was created by God and is continuously formed by Him. This finds expression in the Sacraments, above all in that of Baptism: I enter into the Church not by a bureaucratic act, but with the help of this Sacrament.” Benedict also insists that, always, “we need Grace and forgiveness.”


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 06:20:17 AM »
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  • Fascinating.  Unlike most Traditional Catholics, Ratzinger recognizes that modern theological developments are rooted in EENS/ecclesiology.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 08:48:52 AM »
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  • Quote
    He also speaks of a “profound evolution of Dogma” with respect to the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.


    The cedar tree evolved into an elephant.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline happenby

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 01:13:20 PM »
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  • Because of who is saying it, this docuмent is incredibly useful against bod.

    In this context, he (Ratzinger) also touches upon the exploratory  ideas of the now-deceased Jesuit Cardinal, Henri de Lubac, about Christ's putatively “vicarious substitutions” which have to be now again “further reflected upon.”

    With regard to man's relation to technology and to love, Pope Benedict reminds us of the importance of human affection, saying that man still yearns in his heart “that the Good Samaritan come to his aid.”



    Vicarious substitutions? What? Like bod?  What else could he be talking about?

    The Good Samaritan come to his aid?  What? People really do need someone to baptize them?


    “The Church is not self-made, it was created by God and is continuously formed by Him. This finds expression in the Sacraments, above all in that of Baptism: I enter into the Church not by a bureaucratic act, but with the help of this Sacrament.” Benedict also insists that, always, “we need Grace and forgiveness.”

    The Church is not self-made? I enter into the Church not by a bureaucratic act? but, with the help of this sacrament? What is he saying unless bod doesn't work.

    Benedict XVI has recognized here quite clearly that bod is an out of control concept and must be revisited.

     

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 12:45:59 AM »
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  • "It must be first noted that every Modernist sustains and comprises within himself many personalities: he is a philosopher, a believer, a theologian, an historian, a critic, an apologist, a reformer. These roles must be clearly distinguished from one another by all who would accurately know their system and thoroughly comprehend the principles and consequences of their doctrines."
     
    "Hence, in their books you find some things that might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you will find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."
     
    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS - ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline happenby

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 11:48:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Last Tradhican

    "It must be first noted that every Modernist sustains and comprises within himself many personalities: he is a philosopher, a believer, a theologian, an historian, a critic, an apologist, a reformer. These roles must be clearly distinguished from one another by all who would accurately know their system and thoroughly comprehend the principles and consequences of their doctrines."
     
    "Hence, in their books you find some things that might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you will find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."
     
    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS - ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907



    True, but perhaps BXVI is converting. He did step out to say this recently.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 06:23:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: happenby
    Quote from: Last Tradhican

    "It must be first noted that every Modernist sustains and comprises within himself many personalities: he is a philosopher, a believer, a theologian, an historian, a critic, an apologist, a reformer. These roles must be clearly distinguished from one another by all who would accurately know their system and thoroughly comprehend the principles and consequences of their doctrines."
     
    "Hence, in their books you find some things that might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you will find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."
     
    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS - ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907



    True, but perhaps BXVI is converting. He did step out to say this recently.


    Martin Luther was a staunch defender of EENS.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline happenby

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    Pope Benedict XVI questions baptism of desire?
    « Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 11:07:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Last Tradhican
    Quote from: happenby
    Quote from: Last Tradhican

    "It must be first noted that every Modernist sustains and comprises within himself many personalities: he is a philosopher, a believer, a theologian, an historian, a critic, an apologist, a reformer. These roles must be clearly distinguished from one another by all who would accurately know their system and thoroughly comprehend the principles and consequences of their doctrines."
     
    "Hence, in their books you find some things that might well be expressed by a Catholic, but in the next page you will find other things which might have been dictated by a rationalist."
     
    PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS - ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907



    True, but perhaps BXVI is converting. He did step out to say this recently.


    Martin Luther was a staunch defender of EENS.


    BXVI was not. What's your point? That heretics can hold truth, too? Isn't that frequently the case? ML is dead with no chance to repent. BXVI is making moves to the right. That's a good and hopeful thing. I've read plenty enough of his tipsy turvy writings to know how serious his errors are. It's not unheard of that people turn around. But even more interesting, turning around on this issue? That would be very interesting indeed. I'm not saying either way, but this recent interjection of his is notable.