Author Topic: Are we guilty? (Read 1481 times)

St John Evangelist · « **on:** November 29, 2016, 01:57:21 PM »

Do we inherit any guilt with Original Sin, or do we bear only the punishment for Adam's guilt (death, concupiscence, loss of sanctifying grace)?

I believe that we are guilty of Adam's sin, that when Adam sinned we all sinned, so that every child born is guilty of original sin.

However, it's been brought to my attention that Catholics are denying that we bear any guilt for Original Sin. They say that Original Sin is only the loss of original justice / sanctifying grace, and that we are not guilty.

The Catechism (CCC, of John Paul II) says:

Quote

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

From the Council of Trent we have:

Quote

If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away, but says that it is only touched in person or is not imputed, let him be anathema.

However, they say that in the original Latin the word used for "guilt" is in fact reatus, and not culpa:

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Many English translations of this anathema inaccurately read “the guilt of original sin is remitted,” and this has led to much confusion.
The original Latin of the Council reads “reatum originalis peccati remitti.”
This is important because the term “reatus” does not strictly mean “guilt.”

...

Now with Adam and Eve, they incurred the personal guilt (reatus culpa) of original sin and also the penalty (reatus poena).
All their children (i.e. all human babies) receive only the penalty of sin (reatus poena), which is defined as being without grace, subject to suffering and death, etc. If you not convinced, simply note that human babies die, suffer, and become sick. As they attain the operation of reason and language, they universally commit sins. Lamentably, none of us are not living the life of paradise. Each baby is not guilty of eating the forbidden fruit, but each baby does receive the penalty of that sin.
Now then, occasionally you will see some Catholic authors using “culpa” in reference to original sin. Here, however, they usually clarify it by adding “culpa contracta,” which is a special phrase and it does not mean personal guilt, but “contracted” guilt by association. So then, cupla contracta = reatus poena.

Please read the whole (short) article from which the above is taken: http://taylormarshall.com/2011/07/does-original-sin-guilty-babies.html

So could any of you enlighten me: do we bear any of the guilt of Adam's sin, and if so, in what way do we bear it and to what extent?

Again, my understanding is that we are collectively guilty of Adam's sin. I agree that this is not a "personal guilt" or a "personal sin", but a corporate sin and a contracted guilt. So I don't think that the passage from CCC is in itself heretical, I just find it to be deceptive in how it denies any kind of guilt whatsoever for Original Sin, because my understanding is that the Church has universally taught that we bear it as guilt.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2016, 07:39:27 PM »

Doesn't the quote you cited answer your question? It says that if authors use the term "guilty", they mean contracted guilt rather than personal guilt. So, yes and no, we are guilty but not personally guilty. We are guilty in a manner of speaking.

JoeZ · « **Reply #2 on:** November 29, 2016, 07:59:08 PM »

Trent, fifth session

Decree on Original Sin

3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be [Page 23] saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

God bless,
JoeZ

Source:http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05os.html

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2016, 03:59:06 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Doesn't the quote you cited answer your question? It says that if authors use the term "guilty", they mean contracted guilt rather than personal guilt. So, yes and no, we are guilty but not personally guilty. We are guilty in a manner of speaking.

Read the whole article, Ladislaus. He implies that culpa contracta, contracted guilt, is identical to reatus poena, the penalty of the sentence. He states:

Quote

All their children (i.e. all human babies) receive only the penalty of sin (reatus poena), which is defined as being without grace, subject to suffering and death, etc.

...

Each baby is not guilty of eating the forbidden fruit, but each baby does receive the penalty of that sin.

...

So then, cupla contracta = reatus poena.

...

1. Adam and Eve received the personal guilt for the first sin. Babies are not strictly “culpable” for the first sin.

2. However, babies do receive the penalty (reatus poena) of Adam’s sin. Babies do not come equipped with sanctifying grace, the preternatural gifts, they die, and they will sin when they are older.

3. The Eastern Orthodox accusation that we Catholics believe in “original guilt” or “guilty babies” is false. Likewise, the Calvinist doctrine of “total depravity” (stating that humans fell from their “nature”) is also a grave error.

I agree with him that we are not personally guilty but only contract guilt from our first parents, yet he seems to imply that this contracted guilt is not a real guilt, but only the penalty of our parents' guilt, whereas I would assert that babies are born guilty:

Quote from: Psalm 51:5

For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

The idea that we are not born with any stain of guilt but only with the consequences of Adam's guilt (death, concupiscence, lack of grace), is the view of the Eastern Orthodox, so perhaps this is an ecuмenical venture to please them.

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2016, 04:15:28 AM »

See how one man from the Catholic Answers forum sums it up:

Quote

Reatus culpa is guilt-debt of culpability (removed by absolution).

Reatus poena is punishment for sin (removed by penance). Reatus poena is culpa contracta: contracted fault. Inherited original sin is reatus poena and is without reatus culpa; we inherit only the sentence of our ancestor, i.e., the consequences.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=395907&page=4

In other words, he too, following that article I linked earlier, equates culpa contracta (contracted guilt) with reatus poena (the punishment), and affirms, with the Eastern Orthodox, that we contract only the punishment for Adam's sin, and no actual guilt.

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2016, 04:17:00 AM »

Let's compare, the CCC:

Quote

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

And now, the Penny Catechism:

Quote

115. What is original sin?
Original sin is that guilt and stain of sin which we inherit from Adam, who was the origin and head of all mankind.

116. What was the sin committed by Adam?
The sin committed by Adam was the sin of disobedience when he ate the forbidden fruit.

117. Has all mankind contracted the guilt and stain of original sin?
All mankind has contracted the guilt and stain of original sin, except the Blessed Virgin and her Divine Son, through whose foreseen merits she was conceived without the least guilt or stain of original sin.

Why does the CCC go so out of its way to avoid stating simply that we are born guilty, whereas the Penny Catechism affirms it unequivocally?

See if you can find anything about guilt here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2016, 08:18:23 AM »

Quote from: St John Evangelist

I agree with him that we are not personally guilty but only contract guilt from our first parents, yet he seems to imply that this contracted guilt is not a real guilt, but only the penalty of our parents' guilt, whereas I would assert that babies are born guilty:

Now this is just semantics. It's all based on what you define as "REAL" guilt. If by "REAL" guilt you mean personal guilt, then, no, there's no real guilt in Original Sin. But if you consider imputed or contracted guilt to be real guilt, then there is in fact real guilt with Original Sin. This is just word play.

Personal Guilt -- no.
Imputed Guilt -- yes.

REAL Guilt -- last time I checked there's no theological definition of "real".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2016, 09:08:46 AM »

Basically, you're confusion comes from not making distinctions.

You are confusing guilt simpliciter vs. guilt secundum quid (with qualifications or distinctions applying). Doesn't seem like you'd be satisfied unless someone were to say that Original Sin involves guilt simpliciter.

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2016, 11:25:45 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: St John Evangelist
I agree with him that we are not personally guilty but only contract guilt from our first parents, yet he seems to imply that this contracted guilt is not a real guilt, but only the penalty of our parents' guilt, whereas I would assert that babies are born guilty:

Now this is just semantics. It's all based on what you define as "REAL" guilt. If by "REAL" guilt you mean personal guilt, then, no, there's no real guilt in Original Sin. But if you consider imputed or contracted guilt to be real guilt, then there is in fact real guilt with Original Sin. This is just word play.

Personal Guilt -- no.
Imputed Guilt -- yes.

REAL Guilt -- last time I checked there's no theological definition of "real".

OK, so if children are born with the guilt of Adam only imputed to them, does that mean that the baptised are born with the justice of Christ only imputed to them (Lutheranism)?

By real guilt I just mean that we (when conceived) are in some sense guilty, whether that is a personal guilt or a contracted guilt. I mean a guilt that really belongs to each of us, that the guilt of Original Sin is not just Adam's guilt, but also our own guilt, that this guilt is something that we once bore in our souls, prior to Baptism.

By real guilt I mean the very opposite of a mere imputed guilt. Imputed guilt would imply that we were not actually guilty, but that God merely treated us as though we were guilty. No, I deny this, and affirm that we were actually guilty (of Original Sin), that we bore responsibility for it (even if it was only a corporate responsibility and not a personal one).

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2016, 11:48:51 AM »

In other words, the guilt was internal to our soul, something that was on our soul and which it was necessary to wash away.

An imputed guilt is not really internal to the soul, just as Luther said that we had the righteousness of Christ only imputed to us, such that we were not made internally righteous, but we became such that God treated us as though we were righteous (when internally we remained wicked).

Original Sin is a guilt that inheres in every human soul born into this world. That's what I mean by it being a real guilt, as opposed to being a virtual guilt, one that does not inhere in the soul.

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2016, 12:16:51 PM »

In other words, the guilt was internal to our soul, something that was on our soul and which it was necessary to wash away.

An imputed guilt is not really internal to the soul, just as Luther said that we had the righteousness of Christ only imputed to us, such that we were not made internally righteous, but we became such that God treated us as though we were righteous (when internally we remained wicked).

Original Sin is a guilt that inheres in every human soul born into this world. That's what I mean by it being a real guilt, as opposed to being a virtual guilt, one that does not inhere in the soul.