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Bazz
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I won't attempt to "re-invent the wheel", so here goes:
St. Augustine, "Treatise on Baptism"
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body."
St. Bernard, "De Baptismo"
"What is clearer than that the will is taken for the act, when the act is excluded by necessity?"
St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"...a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance."
St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit"
St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly"
"Catechism of the Council of Trent":
"....should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." [section on baptism]
"...such is the efficacy of true contrition...that through it we obtain from God the immediate pardon of our sins." [section on penance]
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 9:29 pm |
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Telesphorus
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| Deliveringit1 said: | | Telesphorus, so you believe there is "salvation outside of the Church" ? |
No, I don't. I don't define Church membership as belonging only to those who have been baptized with water.
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Rome a perdu la foi, mes chers amis. Rome est dans l'apostasie.
- Archbishop Lefebvre
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 9:49 pm |
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gladius_veritatis
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God created the ordinary motions of nature, etc., too...yet we see Him suspend/set aside those laws from time to time, for His own good reasons (which reasons usually involve the good of His creatures).
So long as something is, in fact, possible, He can do it -- this only excludes things like making a square 'circle', etc. Whether or not He chooses to do this or that is, of course, up to Him.
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+ Vincit veritas +
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 10:08 pm |
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trad123
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Articles of Interest:
Baptism of Desire and of Blood
MATER DEI SEMINARY newsletter "Adsum" (January, 2004)
http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html
Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf
Baptism of Desire: An Exchange
http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2
| Telesphorus said: | | I don't define Church membership as belonging only to those who have been baptized with water. |
This contradicts Pope Pius' teaching in Mystici Corporis Christi:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM
| Quote: | 22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
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What the deal is, is that it is not absolutely necessary to be a member of the Church to belong to the Church.
Two more links of interest:
Membership in the Church, Mons. Fenton Articles
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Membership-in-the-Church-2
Letter of the Holy Office
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm
It's necessary for salvation for a person to belong to the soul of the Church in actuality, and the body of the Church at least in desire, and this desire can be implicit.
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The Mahometan Paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there. - St. Alphonsus
For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven. - Mark 12:25
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 10:16 pm |
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Telesphorus
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well, not formal members, but members of the Body of Christ, when they die.
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Rome a perdu la foi, mes chers amis. Rome est dans l'apostasie.
- Archbishop Lefebvre
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 10:31 pm |
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GregorianChat
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Are there extraordinary means outside the sacraments? Of course there are.
Even though the Council of Trent session 14 canon 6 anathematizes any one who denies sacramental confession is “necessary to salvation” and also canon 7 that the sacrament of Penance is necessary “for the remission of sins”. Someone in mortal sin can still be saved by “perfect contrition” or by shedding their blood in martyrdom. These two are not sacramental confession but they have the effect of the sacrament.
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2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Galatians Chapter 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
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| Posted Dec 27, 2010, 10:54 pm |
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